Once Saved Always Saved?

[Thinkingstuff]

HP: Now that certainly is a debatable point. I say you have indeed violated the rules of this forum by your remarks. I fully understand that you have incorrectly stated my position and do not understand it in the least. Just the same, you have indeed stepped over the line in your comments and are in violation of the rules you feign to uphold.

As for teaching what Scripture states, we shall all have our day in God’s court. He alone will be the final judge of the things everyone of us has taught. Such comments as you make in no wise establishes the truth of what you teach. Anyone can say that they teach according to the Word of God. I am still waiting on the passage that says that all men are liars. In that you do error.

I don't think DHK violated any rules he's defined what he believes to be a works based faith. It doesn't meet with your definition but in the context of his definition its what he believes. I would actually say that the act of believing is also works based but that is another argument. Quid Est Veritas? It can be argued until Christ returns.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Your comments are far from the truth Amy. I have answered thousands of questions on this list and have answered your question as well if you have ears to hear. Just in case you might be listening now, 'never perish' is a conditional promise Amy.
Did you hear that now? Would you admit that I answered your question directly? :wavey:

I apologize if you already answered my question. I must have missed it.

I do have ears to hear, but apparently you do not have eyes to read.

Are you unable to comprehend plain English? Never means never.

Here is the definition again:

Never (John 10:28)
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.

Did you read "by no means"? That means there's nothing you can do to reverse it.

I am done with this conversation. It has become too frustrating for me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: It has become too frustrating for me.

HP: Sorry Amy. Maybe this is just not your calling, this debate stuff, at least as you are attempting to do it now. Keep the faith!

Eph 4:25 "Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another."
:godisgood: ... and so is His Word!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Did you not read post #172?

HP: Yes I did and believe I gave a reasonable response to the passages in question along with a Scriptural response concerning the notion you raise that none are righteous etc.

(Take careful notice how disagreement can be stated and still remain completely within the spirit of the rules of ths forum.:thumbs: )
DHK, I do not believe you are correct in your interpretation of Scripture and are trying to get certain passages to walk on all four legs to prove an unscriprual point that

DHK: "all men are liars."

:godisgood:

 

[JSM17]

Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root. but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE HAUGHTY, BUT FEAR. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE MAY NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS. OTHERWISE YOU WILL BE CUT OFF.

1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Paul knew he had to discipline himself or else he would have been disqualified. He's talking about being disqualified to receive the prize of the imperishable crown (received in eternal life) as the 2 previous verses in the bible explain. Instead of "disqualified," in the KJV it has "castaway." It's usually translated "reprobate." It also means "rejeced, not standing the test, not approved, that which does not prove itself such as it ought." Other times the word (the Greek word "adokimos") is used in the NT, it's talking about the lost (2 Cor. 13:5,6,7 , 2 Tim. 3:8 , Titus 1:16). So since Paul was aware of the danger of not being approved and becoming lost.

 

[steaver]

JSM17;

Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root. but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE HAUGHTY, BUT FEAR. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE MAY NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS. OTHERWISE YOU WILL BE CUT OFF.

1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Paul knew he had to discipline himself or else he would have been disqualified. He's talking about being disqualified to receive the prize of the imperishable crown (received in eternal life) as the 2 previous verses in the bible explain. Instead of "disqualified," in the KJV it has "castaway." It's usually translated "reprobate." It also means "rejeced, not standing the test, not approved, that which does not prove itself such as it ought." Other times the word (the Greek word "adokimos") is used in the NT, it's talking about the lost (2 Cor. 13:5,6,7 , 2 Tim. 3:8 , Titus 1:16). So since Paul was aware of the danger of not being approved and becoming lost.

Hey, I guess I am a prophet!

Steaver, page 1, post #2;

The bible teaches neither. And I bet if I or someone shows you the application of these scriptures you posted, staying in context, applying hermeneutics and requiring harmony between them, you would not change your mind but would just move on to post some more scriptures which you believe teach your pov.

:jesus:

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Sorry Amy. Maybe this is just not your calling, this debate stuff, at least as you are attempting to do it now. Keep the faith!

Not true. I just know when to quit before I say something I'll regret. :wavey:

 

[DHK]

DHK: Romans 3:4
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

HP: Your fishing where DrTimo warns us not to fish.

I don't know where Dr. Timo fishes. Since he lives in a different country than I do, I am sure it is a different place than I do.
Nevertheless, Romans 3:4 clearly states that "everyman, a liar". You have a problem with that, seemingly a problem believing it.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I apologize if you already answered my question. I must have missed it.

I do have ears to hear, but apparently you do not have eyes to read.

Are you unable to comprehend plain English? Never means never.

Here is the definition again:

Never (John 10:28)
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.

Did you read "by no means"? That means there's nothing you can do to reverse it.

I am done with this conversation. It has become too frustrating for me.

It's frustrating Amy because you are seeing one word never and you're trying to build a doctrine off of while neglecting to see other words and the importance of those words.

John 10:27 states: ...they follow me... This indicates a continuous action. They must continue to follow or they will not achieve what Christ has promised. As long as they follow, Christ will never cast them out. I explained this all in my #129 post.

In XC
-

 

[Amy.G]

It's frustrating Amy because you are seeing one word never and you're trying to build a doctrine off of while neglecting to see other words and the importance of those words.

John 10:27 states: ...they follow me... This indicates a continuous action. They must continue to follow or they will not achieve what Christ has promised. As long as they follow, Christ will never cast them out. I explained this all in my #129 post.

In XC
-

I am not building a doctrine around one verse. There are many, many verses that clearly say we are forever safe in God's hand.
I'm trying to get one person to show me that the word never means anything other than never. No one has shown me that.

Joh*10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh*10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh*10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


It does not say that if they follow Me, I will give them eternal life. The sheep naturally follow their master. They follow Him because they know Him and He knows them. They will not follow a stranger. Following is the result of knowing Christ.

First you know Him, then you follow Him. The reason we are given eternal life is because Jesus knows us. The "sheep" receive eternal life and they shall never perish because they are known of the Shepherd.

In contrast:
Mt*7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[annsni]

Wow! So glad I decided to skip most of this one!!

I just know absolutely 100% that I did not save myself. I did not come to Christ on my own but the Father gave me to Him. I know that the Holy Spirit is my guarantee of my salvation and that being sealed, I cannot do anything to lose my salvation. I cannot do anything so bad as to walk away from the Lord Jesus Christ because He has given me a new heart. My desire is no longer this world or what I want but what He wants. Yes, I will fall. Yes, I will stumble but praise God - He is faithful to complete in me what He started.

 

[steaver]

Agnus;

John 10:27 states: ...they follow me... This indicates a continuous action. They must continue to follow or they will not achieve what Christ has promised. As long as they follow, Christ will never cast them out. I explained this all in my #129 post.

You have the "continuous action" part correct. But then you add "they must continue" and "as long as they follow". This is not what it says, you must add this to support the error that one can lose salvation. Why are you adding what it does not say? This is not proper study of the word of truth.

It is VERY clear! "THEY FOLLOW ME". Not "IF they follow me" and not "As long as they follow me". "Continuous action" Take to heart your own opening line which is absolutely correct!

"My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." It is an attribute of a sheep, the sheep follow Jesus. He goes on to say "I give them eternal life" and they shall "never perish".

There just is no way around these truths of OSAS. You adding to scripture what is not there does not change these facts.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Amy;

I am not building a doctrine around one verse. There are many, many verses that clearly say we are forever safe in God's hand.
I'm trying to get one person to show me that the word never means anything other than never. No one has shown me that.

Because they cannot show you without adding a perversion to the text. Eternal means without end and never means it will not ever change.

There is one way out of it Amy, they can reject this portion of scripture, claim it should not be there or claim Jesus lied on this part.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Joh*10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh*10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh*10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


It does not say that if they follow Me, I will give them eternal life. The sheep naturally follow their master. They follow Him because they know Him and He knows them. They will not follow a stranger. Following is the result of knowing Christ.

First you know Him, then you follow Him. The reason we are given eternal life is because Jesus knows us. The "sheep" receive eternal life and they shall never perish because they are known of the Shepherd.

In contrast:
Mt*7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Amy what are you trying to do showing simple facts to those who don't care about facts? They don't want to hear these truths! How can they oppose OSAS if Jesus really meant what He said here? They add "ifs" and "As long as's", words and commentary that are not in the text.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

annsni:

Wow! So glad I decided to skip most of this one!!

I just know absolutely 100% that I did not save myself. I did not come to Christ on my own but the Father gave me to Him. I know that the Holy Spirit is my guarantee of my salvation and that being sealed, I cannot do anything to lose my salvation. I cannot do anything so bad as to walk away from the Lord Jesus Christ because He has given me a new heart. My desire is no longer this world or what I want but what He wants. Yes, I will fall. Yes, I will stumble but praise God - He is faithful to complete in me what He started.

Amen!

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Ro 8:10)

Praise Him! :jesus:

 

[OldRegular]

Wow! So glad I decided to skip most of this one!!

I just know absolutely 100% that I did not save myself. I did not come to Christ on my own but the Father gave me to Him. I know that the Holy Spirit is my guarantee of my salvation and that being sealed, I cannot do anything to lose my salvation. I cannot do anything so bad as to walk away from the Lord Jesus Christ because He has given me a new heart. My desire is no longer this world or what I want but what He wants. Yes, I will fall. Yes, I will stumble but praise God - He is faithful to complete in me what He started.

Well said!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

Amy what are you trying to do showing simple facts to those who don't care about facts? They don't want to hear these truths! How can they oppose OSAS if Jesus really meant what He said here? They add "ifs" and "As long as's", words and commentary that are not in the text.

:jesus:

Another well said :thumbsup: and straight to the sad truth!:tear: :tear:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Stever,

I understand what you talk about "follow" of John 10:27.

Agnus is right, that 'follow' is a continue action.

John 10:27-29 give us a beautiful promise, that Christ KNOWS his sheep who hear and follow Him, no one shall removed them out of His hand, and He gives them eternal life. Christ have the power to secure us, whosever follow Him. Understand, while sheep(Christians) are following Christ at the same time, He stills secure them till they die or Lord comes. Otherwise, if they later decide to stop follow Christ well as Demas already depart from Paul, return back to world again, is no longer secure in Christ's hand.

Follow is a conditional, that we are responsible to obey Christ. If we do not obey Christ in our midst of the road, and afterward, we will not have eternal life - 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

Stever,

I understand what you talk about "follow" of John 10:27.

Agnus is right, that 'follow' is a continue action.

Never perish is not a continuous action. This is not a difficult concept to understand. Your "eisiegesis" of this is all wrong. Jesus was making a contrast. Go back and read John chapters 8 & 9. The Pharisees had rejected Christ. There were many that had turned back and no longer followed Christ. They too had rejected him. But these, whom Jesus was speaking of, his true sheep, had not rejected him. They followed him. They were given eternal life. Did Peter lose eternal life? Not for one second, even though he denied the Lord three times!
What was Jesus testimony concerning Peter?

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
--God does not reveal heavenly things like this to unsaved people who are ready to crucify Christ, and are opposed to his teaching.
Peter was already saved; already had eternal life, and even when he denied Christ three times eternal life could not possibly be turned into "uneternal" or temporary life. Words have meanings. Don't try and destroy them.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

I am 100% agree with you that "never perish" is not a continuous action. Amen. :thumbsup:

Understand, the passage of John 10:27-29 is talking about the PROMISE for sheep(Christians) who follow Christ, are keep in the secure by Christ's power, and He give them eternal life, and will never go into everlasting punishment. Christ's promise is not lie. Christ is not a liar. Christ is the truth. We have to believe and trust Christ's words of His promise.

Unless, if we stop following Christ like Demas, we might not remain longer secure in Him, and He have the rights to loose us out of His hand, just like as the prodigal son of Luke 15:11-32. Luke 15:11-32 give us a perfect example of father, which represent Christ's character. That passage tells us, father cannot force his younger son to stay with Him. Same with Christ, He cannot force us to stay with him like as we are in His hand. Also, Luke 15:11-32 tells us, a younger son have the right to leave his father in his freewill decision. Therefore, Chriat allows us to make our choices and decision, if we want to leave Christ. He allows us to doing it. Do not blame on Him. Blame on individual's decision and choice.

Luke 15:11-32 is very clear teaching us, if suppose, a younger son decides to stay in the world, and never return back to Father for good, then, therefore, he is now "lost" and "dead", that's period-Luke 15:32.

Same as if we decide to stop follow Christ, then we would be no longer remain save or 'being secure' in Christ's hand, as we would be 'lost' according Luke 15:32.

So, therefore, John 10:27 clearly show us that "follow" is conditional by base on obedience is a continuious action with respon toward Christ's calling. Otherwise, if we stop follow Him, and return back to the world, then that mean, we disobey Christ. We would be end up in everlasting fire according 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!