Once Saved Always Saved?

[DHK]

DHK,

Also, Luke 15:11-32 tells us, a younger son have the right to leave his father in his freewill decision. Therefore, Chriat allows us to make our choices and decision, if we want to leave Christ. He allows us to doing it. Do not blame on Him. Blame on individual's decision and choice.

Even when he left he remained a son. The father never disowned him. He always remained a son; only a disobedient one. His father welcomed him back, not as a servant outside of the family, but as a son inside the family.

Luke 15:11-32 is very clear teaching us, if suppose, a younger son decides to stay in the world, and never return back to Father for good, then, therefore, he is now "lost" and "dead", that's period-Luke 15:32.

That is not the teaching of Luke 15. The son returned. He was never lost.

Same as if we decide to stop follow Christ, then we would be no longer remain save or 'being secure' in Christ's hand, as we would be 'lost' according Luke 15:32.

It is the same. But not in the way that you are applying Scripture. Jesus said: "You must be born again." Once one is born into God's family, he cannot be "unborn." God never disowns us. He doesn't kick us out of the family. We are His, and He is ours. He keeps our salvation until the very end. It is not I that keeps Christ; it is Christ that keeps me.

So, therefore, John 10:27 clearly show us that "follow" is conditional by base on obedience is a continuious action with respon toward Christ's calling. Otherwise, if we stop follow Him, and return back to the world, then that mean, we disobey Christ. We would be end up in everlasting fire according 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

2Thes.1:7-10 is speaking only of unbelievers. Learn to rightly divide the word of truth, and not take Scripture out of context. There is no such thing as conditional salvation.
God's love is unconditional.
God's grace is unconditional.
God's salvation is unconditional.
If it is not, then when Christ said, "It is finished," it was a lie, and he didn't mean it.
Salvation is unconditional because Christ paid all the conditions that could possibly be met. The price is paid in full. There is no possible way that man could ever meet any condition for salvation. Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin has left a crimson stain. He washed it white as snow. (And he did it without conditions attached).

 

[steaver]

Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin has left a crimson stain. He washed it white as snow. (And he did it without conditions attached).

I often wonder what hymns can those who believe they are saving themselves sing. Every song in the Christian Hymnal is ALL Jesus! It would be very strange to me to sing those old hymns while believing I am keeping myself saved. It would be like giving only lip service to Jesus.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

DeafPosttrib;

Otherwise, if they later decide to stop follow Christ

As DHK pointed out, unless you grasp the doctrine of "born again" you will never understand there is no such thing as being born of God and stop following Christ.

Born of God is being created a new creature, having the Spirit of Christ IN you, which is why you hear and follow Jesus. It cannot be undone, nor would anyone desire it to be, it is a birth. The gift is free to us, Jesus paid for it in full.

Here is your problem, you preach salvation by religion through obedience, same as any other religion. I preach salvation by relationship through spiritual rebirth. Religion can be followed or not, back and forth. Regeneration cannot be changed. How perfect a plan by the only true God!

Do you think God is going to have the same plan as all the other man-made religions? Can't you see He has done something totally opposite of the way man would do it? Do you think He is that man-like as to just give us another religion of works?

These discussions sadden my heart so much. Why can't all Christians just give Jesus all the glory and credit? Why must we feel a need to add to such a horrific sacrifice as endured by Jesus Christ?

You follow Jesus because of the Spirit He gave you. You cannot stop, you are what you are once born of God.

Tell me something Deafposttrib, how does one stop following Christ? Please explain?

:jesus:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK say:Even when he left he remained a son. The father never disowned him. He always remain a son; only a disobedient one. His father welcomed him back, not as a servant outside of the family, but as a son inside the family'

Father of Luke 15:11-32 show of Christ's character that, He is longsuffering toward us in his love. But, He doesn't force us to stay with him. He gives us the choices. Christ always patience with any poerson who turned away from Him for a while such as several months, or, even several years. Remember, Christ is omniscience. He knows everything, even, He knows future too. He knows when the right time to come when a backslider finally repent again. But, God knows when the right time, not ours. Depend on God's longsuffering, how long it shall be last while any person who is backslidding in a long period. Bible warns us, that we so not harden against God, like as Israel did to God in the wilderness according Hebrews 3:14-15. "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we HOLD the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. While it said, To day IF ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts as in the provocation."

Hey, Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 show us, there is so much of overwhelmed descibe with warnings of conditionals that, we should not be like Israel, what happened to them in the wilderness.

God doesn't force a saint to stay with Him at all the times. God allows saints to have their choice, to make decision. Truly, God is longsuffering toward us, but the question is, HOW LONG will be last? Only God knows, even, Heb. 3:15 warns us that we do not harden heart against the Holy Spirit as according Eph. 4:30.

IF we continue harden our hearts against the Holy Spirit for long time or period. Then, God will do something with us, as what God did to Israel in the wilderness.

Also, yes God welcomes backlsider back in his love. Remmeber, individual's life is not finish yet, individual still hasve plenty time of chance to repent while life before too late. Once when a backslider dies with sins, without repent, then it will be too late.

DHK says: That is not the teaching of Luke 15. The Son returned. He was NEVER(emphasis mine) lost

Son was NEVER lost???


Then, why does Christ said, ""was dead, & "was LOST"? - Luke 15:32?

DHK says: '2 Thess 1:7-10 is speaking only of unbelievers'

You are partially correct.

But, please read 2 Thess. 1:7-10 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power, When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

This telling us, these who will be punish in the everlasting fire in the presence of Christ and his angels at His coming. Because of not believing on him, not know him, and NOT OBEY the gospel(even anyone who do not want to be baptized).

Today, there are too many hearers in Church. But, most of them are not doers. Why? Because they do not obey Christ. That why, most hearers will be end up in everlasting fire.

DHK,

Christ's atonement at Calvary was paid all our sins, that we already commited them, that we will confess all sins. Understand, Christ's forgiven is no limited, he is always faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse all our sins, WHEN we confess our sins to him often daily.

We have to be careful with classical hymns in the church. Because, many of them are mixed with Calvinism doctrine.

Even, also, many churches are arminians. There are many Arminian hymns.

For example, I love classic Arminian hymn song- "Follow Christ".

Arminian hymn of "Follow Christ" says:

I have decided to follow Christ, I have decided to follow Christ, no turn back, no turn back, I have decided to follow Christ, no one join with me, still I have decide follow Christ."

This is a truly classic biblical fundamental hymn.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[steaver]

DeafPoattrib;

Arminian hymn of "Follow Christ" says:

I have decided to follow Christ, I have decided to follow Christ, no turn back, no turn back, I have decided to follow Christ, no one join with me, still I have decide follow Christ."

This is a truly classic biblical fundamental hymn.

In Christ

Why do you call this an "Arminian" hymn? Is the author of it an Arminian follower? A true Arminian believes one can choose Christ, but also believes against OSAS. I don't see this in the words you posted.

The words alone do not suggest one can be born of God and then found to be lost. The words are true for any true believer in Christ. I decided to follow Jesus and also will not turn back again unto perdition (Hebrews 10:39).

:jesus:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

You see, the word' "decided", that is a choice and decision. Calvinism do not believe in freewill decision.

I am not Arminian or Calvinist either, but, many areas I do agree with Arminian teachings on Bible, they sound biblical. Although, many arminians believe in eternal security or OSAS.

There are many arminians or calvinists in baptist churches. But, most of them did not claim of their identify which Arminin or Calvinist, they are. But, they claim, they are Bible believer.

Yet, many baptists have different views and interpreting Bible. No one is perfect. Although the most important basic is, they believe in Jesus, and I am sure that many of them do follow Christ. I believe they are saved, but not all.

Only God knows them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[steaver]

DPT;

You see, the word' "decided", that is a choice and decision. Calvinism do not believe in freewill decision.

I am not Arminian or Calvinist either, but, many areas I do agree with Arminian teachings on Bible, they sound biblical. Although, many arminians believe in eternal security or OSAS.

Yes, I said I made the choice to follow Jesus, a decision. This does not make one an Arminian.

You said, "many arminians believe in eternal security or OSAS." If they believe this, then they are not "arminians". Arminian did not believe in OSAS.

This is why most here cannot be called Calvinist nor Arminianist. Most here believe we have a choice to follow Christ (anti-Calvin) and at the same time believe in OSAS (anti-Arminian).

So I ask again, what makes you call many hymns "Arminian"? Just because they read of choice does not make them Arminian. Neither does them reading Eternal Security make them Calvinian.

To call someone or something "Arminian" it must be both "free will choice" to follow Christ AND "OSAS". One without the other will not suffice.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You said, "many arminians believe in eternal security or OSAS." If they believe this, then they are not "arminians". Arminian did not believe in OSAS…..


To call someone or something "Arminian" it must be both "free will choice" to follow Christ AND "OSAS". One without the other will not suffice.

HP: Does this sound right to you? Does the second to the last sentence contradict your first one?

 

[JSM17]

Gal 5:1-6
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.In the Epistle to the Galatians Paul makes a strong contrast to the Christians in Galatia about the dangers of reverting back to the Law and holding Gentiles to such.

It seems to me that when Paul makes is admonition to those who are seeking to be justified by the law he is warning them that this will make them become estranged from Christ. We he says that they attempt to be justified by the Law, which it cannot do this for them, they have fallen fom grace.

Are we to say that not one single Christian ever tried to be justified again by something that they had left in order to become a Christian.

The whole letter of Hebrews deals with this very issue.

Hebrews 2:1-3 - Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord...?

Hebrews 3:12,13 - BEWARE, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ IF WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST TO THE END.

Hebrews 3:18 - 4:1 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, LET US FEAR LEST ANY OF YOU SEEM TO HAVE COME SHORT OF IT.

Hebrews 4:11 - Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, LEST ANYONE FALL according to the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:26 - IF WE SIN willfully (as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness) AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, THERE NO LONGER REMAINS a sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:29 - Of how much WORSE PUNISHMENT, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (note: this person was saved, see, he had been sanctified) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:38 - "Now the just shall live by faith; BUT IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK, My soul has no pleasure in him."

Hebrews 12:15-17 - looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
NKJV

 

[steaver]

HP: Does this sound right to you? Does the second to the last sentence contradict your first one?

Arminian believed in free will choice concerning "being saved". He also believed one could lose salvation after having made the choice and "being saved".

Thus, you cannot call me a Arminian. For I believe in free will choice, but do not believe one can lose salvation.

Same goes for Calvinian. Even though I believe in OSAS, you cannot call me a Calvinian because I believe in free will choice, something Calvin did not teach.

Here is a tid bit of information about me. When I first learned of a debate over OSAS, I went to the scriptures alone and spent countless hours of study searching for answers as to what side of the debate was true. I made my decision apart from ever reading Calvin or Arminian. I heard of them, but didn't give them any credence nor read their writings. So my conclusions came solely from the scriptures. So with or without Calvin or Arminian the debate would always have existed.

:godisgood:

 

[steaver]

JSM17;

The whole letter of Hebrews deals with this very issue.

Hebrews 2:1-3 - Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord...?

Hebrews 3:12,13 - BEWARE, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ IF WE HOLD the beginning of our confidence STEADFAST TO THE END.

Hebrews 3:18 - 4:1 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, LET US FEAR LEST ANY OF YOU SEEM TO HAVE COME SHORT OF IT.

Hebrews 4:11 - Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, LEST ANYONE FALL according to the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:26 - IF WE SIN willfully (as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness) AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, THERE NO LONGER REMAINS a sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 10:29 - Of how much WORSE PUNISHMENT, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (note: this person was saved, see, he had been sanctified) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:38 - "Now the just shall live by faith; BUT IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK, My soul has no pleasure in him."

Hebrews 12:15-17 - looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
NKJV

You forgot one....

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews is for meat eaters. One must first learn and accept the milk of the word, faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, buried and ressurrected to life the only way for salvation. Not by works of righteousness but by the imputed righteousness of Christ. Faith Alone.

The writer of Hebrews does alot of contrasting between those playing church and true believers. Thus is why he concludes with verse 39. "We" true Christians are not of "them" playing Christian who draw back unto "perdition", but we true Christians are them who believe unto the saving of the soul, or as we put it OSAS.

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: or as we put it OSAS.

HP: How do you know you are not simply deceived as to being one of the OSAS? You do believe deception is possible don’t you?

 

[DHK]

HP: How do you know you are not simply deceived as to being one of the OSAS? You do believe deception is possible don’t you?

If you are speaking of salvation, I will assume that Steaver will say no.
I know that I will say: No, I cannot be deceived concerning my salvation. There is no possible way. It is impossible. I cannot lose that which Christ has given me. Christ doesn't lie. He doesn't take away that which he has given. He doesn't break his promises. He doesn't change. He is immutable, as is His promises. I cannot be deceived for Christ cannot be deceived, and I have trusted Him, and it is He that keeps my salvation.

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: He doesn't take away that which he has given.

HP: You beg the question DHK. Why cannot you be deceived as to what you believe He has given? Many will be according to Scripture, will they not?

 

[DHK]

HP: You beg the question DHK. Why cannot you be deceived as to what you believe He has given? Many will be according to Scripture, will they not?

You need to quote specific Scripture.
There will come a day--after the rapture, when the Holy Spirit will no longer be working in the hearts of men to save them. It will be a day of judgement not of grace. In that day, the general populace of the world will be deceived. The Bible says they will believe a lie. However it also says that God will send upon them a strong delusion.

There is no reason for God to send a strong delusion on me, and he won't. I trust the Scriptures, and my Saviour. It is plain and simple. Christ does not lie.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

Many pretribs interpret 2 Thess. 2:7- "he be taken out of the way." idenfiy as Holy Spirit as restrainer, will leave out as rapture.

Their interpreting of 2 Thess 2:7 is error.

The context of 2 Thess. 2:3-8 talks about Satan's work. Paul told us, that our gathering together shall not come till we must see apostasy('falling away') first, and the man of sin revealed. It speaking of increase of Christians forsaking God, and the wicked increasing within Christians -2 Thess. 2:3-4. These are already happening long time ago since Early Church to today.

2 Thess. 2:6-8 describes about Satan, it tel;ls us, Satan is now hindering by the Holy Spirit as he is being limited from deceive the nations according Rev. 17:9-"beast is not(not yet revealed), also Rev. 20:2-3 too. These are speaking of Satan is now hinder by the Holy Spirit, because God gave the power("key") to the Church to spreading the gospel over the world to be saved. When God sees the spiritual conditions within Church over the world become worst in the last days, more Christians falling away, and become wicked. God knows when the right time to come, God is about to become fed up with individuals' sins within Church, then God will allow Satan to be loosed out of the way(2 Thess. 7-8), which refer with Rev. 17:8('shall ascend out of the bottomless pit') & Rev. 20:3 ('he must be loose a little season', also Rev. 20:7 -'Satan shall be loosed out of his prison'). God will allow Satan to be revealed, and then Satan will have power ro deceive the world, even also make war against Christians.

Nothing say in context of 2 Thess. 2:3-10 that, the "grace" will be removed or gone as 'Tribulation period' begins.

The gospel will always still present in the world, even when after Satan be revealed according Matt. 24:14; & Matt. 28:20. The gospel of the grace will be done as WHEN Christ shall come with his angels to judge the world - 2 Thess. 1:7-10. That is speak of second coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Stever,

Of course, reading chapter as context is very important.

You mentioned of Heb. 10:39. I do agree with Heb. 10:39 100% completely.

It tells us, that we are warned that we should NOT be the one of them. Please go to 1 Cor. 10:1-6. Paul wrotes, speaking about what happened to Israel in the wilderness, that they were did delivered by God from Egypt, did followed God(Cloud), did drink the same spiritual meat and drink. They were did followed the Rock, which is Christ. But, afterward, they rebelled sinned against God during 40 years in the wilderness. They were complain against God, have no faith, and worshipped their own idols, they were doing wicked ways.

Notice 1 Cor. 10:6 says, "Now these things were OUR examples, to the intent we should not after evil things, AS THEY(Israel) also lusted."

Paul warned us, that we should NOT be the one of them as what happened to them in the wilderness.

Same with Heb. 10:39 warns us that we should NOT be the one of them, as what happened to them. This is a warning.

Therefore, the whole chapter of Hebrews 10 is very clear speak of conditional with warning. That we cannot afford to neglect them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

HP: Why is it that I am called on by Scripture to examine myself, but DHK has absolute knowledge of his salvation without the possibility of deception, at least according to him, eliminating any such need?

DHK: There will come a day--after the rapture, when the Holy Spirit will no longer be working in the hearts of men to save them. It will be a day of judgement not of grace. In that day, the general populace of the world will be deceived. The Bible says they will believe a lie. However it also says that God will send upon them a strong delusion.

HP: Is 2Cor 13:5 only for the admonition of those after the rapture DHK?

 

[steaver]

HP: Why is it that I am called on by Scripture to examine myself, but DHK has absolute knowledge of his salvation without the possibility of deception, at least according to him, eliminating any such need?

I have examined myself. What are you suppose to look for HP? It tells us plainly, "how that Jesus Christ is in you".

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" (Ro 8:16)

I have examined myself and find Romans 8 to be true for me. How about you?

I "know" Jesus Christ is in me. Scripture declares this "knowledge" comes from God. Would God deceive me?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

DPT;

Of course, reading chapter as context is very important.

You mentioned of Heb. 10:39. I do agree with Heb. 10:39 100% completely.

It tells us, that we are warned that we should NOT be the one of them.

Maybe you should read it again...

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You would like it to say "But we SHOULD NOT be of them who draw back unto perdition; but SHOULD BE of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Sorry, I'll stick with what God actually said.

:thumbs:

Why do you opponants of OSAS insist on re-writing what is written?? Just let the word speak the way it is written, then maybe you will have some peace in your heart!