Once Saved Always Saved?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I would like for DHK to follow the logic. He seems to claim that God calls all men to salvation. He appears to shy away from predestination of the Calvinist and gives free will at least 'lip service.' So tell us DHK, where does the following logic go wrong?
1. God calls all men to salvation
2. All men receive the call to salvation.
3. Men can either accept the call or reject the call.
4. Those that accept of their own free will be saved.
5. Those that reject of their own free will be damned

Conclusion: Men decide by their rejection or acceptance of the gospel their eternal fate. Man’s will is the deciding factor in who is and who is not saved. Man’s will determines salvation, i.e., who will be saved and who will be lost, not God.

 

[steaver]

HP;

Deafposttrib makes an excellent rebuttal to the notion of eternalism. (Eternalism being the false notion that because the word ‘eternal’ is used in conjunction with salvation, it somehow establishes OSAS)

HP;

Steaver suggests that I have run from the debate when he mentions eternalism as being the case

Does anyone here know what "eternalism" is? What do people do when they cannot defend a pov? Do they build up straw men and then proceed to tear them down?

Just so everyone knows and HP learns something as well, "eternalism" is defined as follows....

The word eternalism has at least three meanings:

• Eternalism (philosophy of time) is a view according to which the past, present and future are all equally real.
• Eternalism is a position in phenomenology that the world must be seen as static and fixed. This worldview is in opposition to mobilism, which states that the world must be seen as in a constant state of flux. These worldviews are particularly relevant to paradoxology.
• Eternalism/Perpetualism is the common English translation of sasatavada, the doctrine of eternal becoming rejected by Buddhism.

Not as HP defined eternalism. So let's stay on topic and understand that changing the meanings of fanciful words cannot change the errors one holds to. You don't see people on the OSAS side redefining words, do you?

Now the scripture declares that when one is IN Christ they have been given "eternal life". Here is what the definition of eternal is....

Eternal can mean:

• Eternity, an infinite amount of time, or a timeless state
• Eternal life, or immortality

Jesus said, Jhn 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
1Jo 5:11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



Now this causes a huge problem with HP's position. And this is why he runs away from the challenge to harmonize these scriptures with his position or other scriptures he puts forth. He cannot harmonize so he retreats and comes back another day another way with the same old tired attempts to lead others into his errors.

Now let's deal with the word "eternal", not "eternalism". No one has said anything about "eternalism".

 

[OldRegular]

HP

Reading your posts #'s 161, 152, 153, and 158 it appears that you speak with forked tongue, or out of both sides of your mouth, or that you just want to be contentious. Which is it? It is not possible to respond to your posts. Though I have disagreements with DHK I am surprised that he even bothers to debate with you.

 

[DHK]

HP: DHK has also stated that all men are liars, therefore keeping the faith involves lying by necessity.

It has been stated over and over that no sin can separate one from God due to OSAS, and no one can live above sin, not even with the proffered help of God Himself, therefore committing adultery, lying, stealing, etc., etc., are all a necessitated part and parcel to the keeping of the faith. One can only conclude that nothing is inconsistent in the theology of OSAS, in keeping the faith and sin itself.
If ones theology embraces sin in such a manner as to believe that it is impossible to be freed from, how is that religion not properly viewed as a sinning religion or a theology that embraces, and as such, encourages sin?

There are so many inconsistencies and contradictions in this post it is not even worth answering.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OldRegular: Reading your posts #'s 161, 152, 253, and 158 it appears that you speak with forked tongue, or out of both sides of your mouth, or that you just want to be contentious. Which is it? It is not possible to respond to your posts. Though I have disagreements with DHK I am surprised that he even bothers to debate with you.

HP: What is surprising is that I would answer your post. If you desire to say something of substance and or debate, state your point or your disagreement. Personal attacks without substance is no way to debate OR.

If you do not know how to answer, point me to one you are having trouble with and maybe I can see if I can help you.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

By the way OR, if DHK would take back or modify some of the far out unscriptural remarks he has made in the past, such as his “all men are liars” remark, he might not illicit some of the responses receives. :wavey:

 

[DHK]

By the way OR, if DHK would take back or modify some of the far out unscriptural remarks he has made in the past, such as his “all men are liars” remark, he might not illicit some of the responses receives.

The Bible states that all men are liars.
Your argument is with God, not with me.

 

[OldRegular]

Original post by OldRegular
Reading your posts #'s 161, 152, 253, and 158 it appears that you speak with forked tongue, or out of both sides of your mouth, or that you just want to be contentious. Which is it? It is not possible to respond to your posts. Though I have disagreements with DHK I am surprised that he even bothers to debate with you.

Response by HP
What is surprising is that I would answer your post. If you desire to say something of substance and or debate, state your point or your disagreement. Personal attacks without substance is no way to debate OR.

If you do not know how to answer, point me to one you are having trouble with and maybe I can see if I can help you.

Some of the posts I mentioned argue both sides of the issue. Make up your mind what you believe or quit being contentious then perhaps we can have a discussion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The Bible states that all men are liars.
Your argument is with God, not with me.

HP: I must have missed that verse. What verse is that? I found one that speaks of one that in his haste made such a remark, butI have yet to find one that makes the claim you say Scripture makes. Ps 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

 

[Amy.G]

HP only asks questions. And then disagrees with anything you say. He will not answer a question posted to him, only dodge around it or completely ignore it. It's tiring and I give up most of the time.

I'm still waiting to see what his interpretation of "shall NEVER perish" is.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OR: Some of the posts I mentioned argue both sides of the issue. Make up your mind what you believe or quit being contentious then perhaps we can have a discussion.

HP: Point to one and make your case. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: I must have missed that verse. What verse is that? I found one that speaks of one that in his haste made such a remark, butI have yet to find one that makes the claim you say Scripture makes. Ps 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Romans 3:12 ... there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP only asks questions. And then disagrees with anything you say. He will not answer a question posted to him, only dodge around it or completely ignore it. It's tiring and I give up most of the time.

I'm still waiting to see what his interpretation of "shall NEVER perish" is.

HP: Your comments are far from the truth Amy. I have answered thousands of questions on this list and have answered your question as well if you have ears to hear. Just in case you might be listening now, 'never perish' is a conditional promise Amy.
Did you hear that now? Would you admit that I answered your question directly? :wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Romans 3:4
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

HP: Your fishing where DrTimo warns us not to fish.:thumbs:

DHK: Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

HP: I suppose I could list dozens of verses informing you of those God calls righteous, but what good would that do if your mind is fixed?

DHK: Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

HP: Whose throat? All men and that from birth? You have to be kidding. We are to be dead to sin and alive to Christ. Paul said, “Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Men that are dead to sin no longer live therein.

DHK: Romans 3:12 ... there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

HP: Shall I simply give you numerous Scriptural quotes like the following that refute such a blanket application as you try to make? Here is one just for the record. Lu 1:5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

[DHK]

HP: I have never implied that salvation is or by works.

Every time you use such terminology as "obedient faith," you imply that Christianity is no better than Islam or Hinduism--religions of works. Christianity is the only faith in the world that is by grace through faith alone and not of works. Yet you will not believe that even though the Bible states it word for word. You believe in a works based salvation, just like all the other religions of the world.

What I would say is that one that claims to have faith, yet has no works, is simply deceived.

Again you claim that salvation is not by faith but by works. This is heresy. It is not what the Bible teaches about salvation. It is what Islam teaches; Hinduism, Catholicism, Buddhism, and a multitude of other religions. It is not Biblical Christianity. You have missed the mark.

We are not saved by our works, but neither will any be saved apart from works, for faith without works is dead.

Not according to the Bible. Works do not play a role in salvation. If they do, then a person is not saved. They have no understanding of what the atonement is. If works play a part in salvation then one might as well spit in the face of Jesus and tell him that the price he paid on the cross with his precious blood was not sufficient enough to atone for our sins. We must contribute with our works as well. Jesus was too anemic to pay the price. "It is finished" was just a lie.

Keeping the faith cannot be done without works in accordance to ones faith,……unless it is dead faith you are bent on keeping.

Keeping the faith is not, and never was sinless perfection. You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You often pull these verses out of James in your defense. But you pull them out of their context, as a pretext to use for your preconceived theology. You ignore the context of the Book of James. He is not speaking of salvation. He is speaking of "Practical Christian Living." That is the theme of the book. You would have James contradicting what Paul says in Romans 4, when Paul does speak of salvation, and cannot reconcile the two passages of Scripture. But James is not speaking of salvation. Therefore you do not understand what James is speaking.

Key verse: Show me thy faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
--In other words works comes as a result of being saved. They are after salvation; not a requirement thereof.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: in other words works comes as a result of being saved. They are after salvation; not a requirement thereof.

HP: Works like lying DHK? Is that the kind of works that come along?
Do not worry, I will get to your other points as well.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You believe in a works based salvation, just like all the other religions of the world.

HP: Jesus said that “I am the way.” When you equate what I believe to be just like 'all the other religions of the world,' tell us how you are not judging my salvation? …or do you believe that all other religions of the world are going to the same place called heaven?

 

[DHK]

HP: Jesus said that “I am the way.” When you equate what I believe to be just like 'all the other religions of the world,' tell us how you are not judging my salvation? …or do you believe that all other religions of the world are going to the same place called heaven?

As long as one (anyone) insists on "obedient faith" that is, faith plus works, in order to be saved, they cannot be saved, for salvation is by faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I do not judge anyone's salvation; I simply teach what the Bible states.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I do not judge anyone's salvation; I simply teach what the Bible states.

HP: Now that certainly is a debatable point. I say you have indeed violated the rules of this forum by your remarks. I fully understand that you have incorrectly stated my position and do not understand it in the least. Just the same, you have indeed stepped over the line in your comments and are in violation of the rules you feign to uphold.

As for teaching what Scripture states, we shall all have our day in God’s court. He alone will be the final judge of the things everyone of us has taught. Such comments as you make in no wise establishes the truth of what you teach. Anyone can say that they teach according to the Word of God. I am still waiting on the passage that says that all men are liars. In that you do error.

 

[DHK]

I am still waiting on the passage that says that all men are liars. In that you do error.

Did you not read post #172?