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Once Saved Always Saved?
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Heavenly Pilgrim
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2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Dr. Timo, here again Paul is speaking directly in this verse of his own personal persuasion. Note carefully the “I” in the verse no less than five times. As I said before, if one desires to have Paul’s personal confidence, they need Paul’s personal testimony of a clear conscience before God and man as the passages I mentioned before point out.
Dr. Timo, here again Paul is speaking directly in this verse of his own personal persuasion. Note carefully the “I” in the verse no less than five times. As I said before, if one desires to have Paul’s personal confidence, they need Paul’s personal testimony of a clear conscience before God and man as the passages I mentioned before point out.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Sorry Amy. I did not mean to neglect your post. I thought it should have been answered in post#116, although I did not mention your post or that particular verse directly.
“They shall never perish” is a promise, just like all other promises concerning salvation, that is conditional upon remaining ‘in the vine’ until the end. Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”
I don't see where Jesus said it was conditional. Never perish, means never.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Joh*10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh*10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh*10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh*10:30 I and my Father are one.
The only condition I see here is God's ability to keep you.
No man can snatch you out of Christ's hand. That includes you.
If God promised you will never perish, will He break His promise?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The doctrine of the eternal security of the true believers, the "Saints" is clearly shown in the following passage for those who are capable of understanding plain English:
Romans 8:28-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Now who are the called. Called translates the Greek word kletos. The word occurs 11 times in the New Testament and means:
1) called, invited (to a banquet)
1a) invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ
1b) called to (the discharge of) some office
1b1) divinely selected and appointed
An appropriate passage that indicates the same use of the word as in Romans 8:28 is shown in the following Scripture:
1 Corinthians 1:1,2, 22-24
1. Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
The word called in verse 30 has a different meaning: to invite, to call by name.
Notice in verses Romans 8:30 the following:Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1. Those whom God Predestinates He Calls or Invites.
2. Those whom He Calls He Justified.
3. Those Whom He Justified He Glorified.
Here we have in one sentence the Doctrine of Election explained. In the mind of God those He has elected to salvation are already glorified. Nothing can remove the Saints from the hand of God. Their Salvation is Secure.
Notice in the remainder of the passage from Romans:
1. If God is for us who can be against us?
2. Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?
3. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ who died for us?
4. We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
Now you folks out there who believe that God cannot keep those who belong to him are free to do so. I wonder how you sleep at night realizing that you may have left some sin unconfessed and make an unplanned visit to hell before morning or that Satan is more powerful than God and will seize you out of the hand of God. Pitiful. Sad. O ye of little faith!
Romans 8:28-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Now who are the called. Called translates the Greek word kletos. The word occurs 11 times in the New Testament and means:
1) called, invited (to a banquet)
1a) invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ
1b) called to (the discharge of) some office
1b1) divinely selected and appointed
An appropriate passage that indicates the same use of the word as in Romans 8:28 is shown in the following Scripture:
1 Corinthians 1:1,2, 22-24
1. Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
The word called in verse 30 has a different meaning: to invite, to call by name.
Notice in verses Romans 8:30 the following:Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1. Those whom God Predestinates He Calls or Invites.
2. Those whom He Calls He Justified.
3. Those Whom He Justified He Glorified.
Here we have in one sentence the Doctrine of Election explained. In the mind of God those He has elected to salvation are already glorified. Nothing can remove the Saints from the hand of God. Their Salvation is Secure.
Notice in the remainder of the passage from Romans:
1. If God is for us who can be against us?
2. Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?
3. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ who died for us?
4. We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
Now you folks out there who believe that God cannot keep those who belong to him are free to do so. I wonder how you sleep at night realizing that you may have left some sin unconfessed and make an unplanned visit to hell before morning or that Satan is more powerful than God and will seize you out of the hand of God. Pitiful. Sad. O ye of little faith!
Hey HP: The verse you are using to say you must endure begins with an if in the English language. If you look it up in your greek new testament you will find it means since. Then maybe you can read in context with the rest of scripture. The parable that was used in an earlier post is not only refering to Christians only as servants. Never still means never Amy. Any of these enduring folks just ask them to stop and see what God says to them. Maybe some of them would actually start serving the Lord through His Spirit instead of trying in their own strength to please God. :smilewinkgrin: :jesus:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Dr. Timo said:
Well said!
Amy. G from Tennessee (forgive me, I'm also from Tennessee):Amy.G said:
In verse 27, we read …and they follow me. In Greek the words follow me indicate continuous action, and if that action stops, then you lose the promise attached to it.
It’s difficult to translate that Greek language concept into English, so people end up reading the words as EXCLUSIVELY PAST TENSE, which is wrong and misleading. Jesus is not talking about a one time belief and then security forever.
Here’s what the Baptist Theologian Dale Moody had to say concerning John 10:28…
John 10:28 is frequently used as a security blanket by those who ignore many of the New Testament warnings about going back or falling away, but a literal translation of John 10:27-28 . . . hardly needs explanation . . . 'My sheep keep on hearing my voice, and I keep on knowing them, and they keep on following me: and I "keep on giving" them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.' Some read the passage as if it says: 'My sheep "heard" my voice, and I "knew" them, and they "followed" me, and I "gave" to them eternal life.' [But] The verbs are present linear, indicating continuous action by the sheep and by the Shepherd, not the punctiliar fallacy of the past tense.(Moody, 357)
In XC
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: This remark is uncalled for and has no basis in truth whatsoever. For you to say that any on this list are trying to please God in their own strength is again without the least shred of evidence. It is Christ that strengthens us to do His will, yet that is not by force or coercion but in cooperation with the will of man. Php 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Without God we can do nothing.
Go ahead DHK, Steaver or some of the rest of you. Ask the real question on your mind concerning the apostle. Ask if Paul thought he was God or able to do anything God could do, just ask you asked me when I said God promised to lead us into ‘all truth’ you asked if I thought I was as omniscient as God Himself knowing all things.
I think I may be developing an uncanny ability to foretell the questions some are going to ask before they even ask them.
:smilewinkgrin: OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Agnus_Dei said:
Dale Moody was a liberal professor at Southern Seminary who felt endowed to pick and choose those Scripture he would accept. He obviously was just as weak in interpreting those Scripture he chose!:BangHead: :BangHead:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
Amy
It is indeed sad that so many will not accept the comfort of God's promise of Eternal Security for His children.
I'm not sure I can forgive you since you left TN. :laugh:Agnus_Dei said:
I can accept that. Following is a natural response to the Shepherd because they know Him. They will not follow another.
Joh*10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
I agree. Our faith is not temporary.
I find it interesting that D.L. Moody, in his interpretation, left out the part that says "they shall never perish" and "no one shall snatch them out of my hand".
Jesus says He is the good shepherd. His sheep know Him and follow Him. They will not follow another. He lays down His life for the sheep. If one of the sheep wanders off, He will leave the 99 and go after the one. He doesn't let the wandering sheep fall off a cliff.
If you just do a study on Jesus being the good shepherd, you cannot come to the conclusion that God lets even one of his children perish.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
DHK said:
Obviously, but not all are necissarily directly associated with an apostle. Which was my point. However, alot has been said on this thread since I last looked at it. So it'll take me a little time to get caught up.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
If it weren't so sad, that statement would be funny.
You are trying to please God in your own strength. That is exactly what you're doing when you say that you have to keep your salvation. You are putting your strength above God's. You are trying to work yourself into God's good graces.
Joh*17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Did God keep the disciples? Shortly after this prayer, the disciples abandoned Jesus, and Peter denied that he even knew Him. Yet, Jesus prayed that God would keep them. By your standards, these men were as lost as last year's Easter egg.
I have to echo what OldRegular said, how do you sleep at night? You should live every moment of your life in terror, because you do not trust the Lord to hold you in His hand.
Oh and how I miss Tennessee…truly God’s country.Amy.G said:
Keep in mind that OSAS rejects the necessity of free will for the sake of perseverance. This verse you quote from St. John is not a guarantee of perseverance. It’s a simple statement of fact that those who continue to follow will persevere until the end and will reap the rewards.Amy.G said:
Now Amy, let’s take the case of Judas…
John 17:7-12 reads:
Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Notice the obvious reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,”My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent.
Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.
In XC
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Exactly. None of them was lost, except Judas, who never was one of God's children. He was chosen as the betrayer.Agnus_Dei said:
Judas was always lost. He was never in the Father's hand. He never had salvation to begin with.
Of course there was a need. The disciples needed to know that they were safe in God's hand.
Jesus' prayers were said sometimes to comfort and teach those listening.
Joh*11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh*11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Yes. Judas had a free will. But God uses the rebellion of people as part of His plans. Just as He used Pharaoh to release the Hebrews. He didn't make Pharaoh reject Him, but He used His rebellion and hard heart to carry out His plans and glorify Himself.Agnus_Dei said:
Judas was chosen as the betrayer long before he was a gleam in his mother's eye. God knew his heart. He used the hardness of Judas' heart to carry out His plan.
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