Once Saved Always Saved?

[steaver]

HP: Have you been asleep or have you just failed to listen? We have been told that all men are liars, all men sin, you cannot help but sin, anyone that says he can live above sin, even for a day, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

These things are told you in the context of "sinless perfection". Even you will admit that you sin and the reason you cannot be perfect is because you are stuck in a body of death. The flesh wars against the spirit. So the points are valid.

We are told that are actions are divorced from who we are, in that we can positionally be in Christ while actively engaged in open sin. We have been told that nothing can separate us from God, including any sin regardless of what it is and regardless if one has repented and turned from it, which includes murder, fornication, adultery, lying, or stealing, just to mention a few. Of course condemnation is something that simply has no place in a believers life, regardless of what ones conscience tells them, for all past present, and future sins have been paid for in full.

Sin has consequences for the believer. Scripture teaches this, however scripture teaches that those in Christ walking after the Spirit (born again) will not be condemned to hell (Ro 8)

Such notions would certainly appear to me to promote a sinful lifestyle. Yea it establishes that ‘nothing but a sinful lifestyle’ is even possible for the believer, and anyone with any other view is but a liar and as such a sinner like all the rest of believers, at least to those promoting OSAS, that is.

I understand how you feel, but you are in error in such thinking and this is probably why you reject God's word "eternal".

Maybe you can set the record straight as to what the OSAS doctrine promotes. Certainly I believe that there are some within the OSAS camp that live on a higher plane than their doctrines allow or even limit believers to. That still would not change the tendencies of the doctrine to encourage lifestyles to the contrary.

The doctrine of OSAS promotes humility. Understanding the precious gift you have been given. Knowing that no matter how many times you fail Jesus has you covered. It keeps pride and boasting out of your life so you will appeciate ALL the work Jesus has done and recognize your own efforts cannot save you.

The doctrine promotes love and understanding, it keeps one from looking down their noses at others saying "and he calls himself a Christian".

It keeps one from passing judgment of condemnation upon another believer, taking God's authority to judge in this matter upon themselves. Teaching that one better not sin or hell is their destiney. Sin is the transgression of the law and God's word declares the law was not given for eternal life, it was given for a school master, to point to grace through faith alone in God through His sacrifice for salvation.

Rom 8:1[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Read this HP! What don't you understand about these verses? For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death does not apply to my spirit. My body has yet to die but through Christ I (soul and spirit) am not under the law of sin. And neither are you!

:jesus:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Scriptures, completely and verbally inspired by God and, therefore, inerrant.

How about that!:laugh:

How were the scriptures compiled then? Who determined that they were inspired by God? You will find the same people you base no claim in.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First Century A.D.; ca. 90 A.D. The writer--The Apostle John; The book: The Gospel of John; The passages: John 5:24; 10:27-30; 3:16-18, 36

The nature of the book: The inspired Word of God--accepted by all the early believers as accurately recorded by the Holy Spirit.

What about hebrew or the book of Jude? Or which John wrote the Revelaton. did the apostle write the book of Mark or a disciple of Peter? And those passages are you interpreting them in context of the entire work?

 

[DHK]

HP: That is indeed an assumption you make, a presupposition by which all Scripture is filtered through. The problem remains that it is a presupposition unfounded upon the Word of God. It is a reckless presupposition that ignores the warnings of Scripture that one can indeed make shipwreck of ones faith and be eternally lost.

Speaking of “eternally” lost, that was the state of everyman prior to coming to a saving knowledge of salvation. Can we not rejoice together that such did not determine the final state of our eternal abode? I certainly can and do!

Look at Scripture more closely.

Ephesians 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, (ASV)

The Ephesian believers were dead. Paul says they were dead. How? They were spiritually dead--spiritually separated from God, and had they died in that state it would be for all eternity if they had died in that state.
--But they didn't die in that state.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)

It was by God's grace that they were saved.
And as verse one states, He "made them alive."
Now that they are alive, they have eternal life. That eternal life can never be lost. If it could Christ would be a liar and eternal would not be eternal. Words have meanings.

 

[DHK]

What about hebrew or the book of Jude? Or which John wrote the Revelaton. did the apostle write the book of Mark or a disciple of Peter? And those passages are you interpreting them in context of the entire work?

The question, dripping in sarcasm and supposed unbelief, that was asked was this:

why did not a single person advocate or affirm it over a period of 1500 years? Surely someone can come up with something here, be it ever so obscure. I know! Why don't you look in The Trail of Blood?

My answer was just one example, and in that example a very few passages or references given.
That was only one document.
Yes, Jude (half-brother of Christ), Mark, Peter, are other documents that exist--all well before the date of 1500. Of those three writers Jude is the latest, writing in 70 A.D. Peter was martyred before him, and Mark's Gospel, written with the help of Peter, was one of earlier gospels. The teaching of OSAS is found in all the writings of the above authors. If you need references I will give them to you. Needless to say, the dates of these documents precede the Reformation by at least a millennium and a half.
I would say that someone's history is off.

 

[Zenas]

First Century A.D.; ca. 90 A.D. The writer--The Apostle John; The book: The Gospel of John; The passages: John 5:24; 10:27-30; 3:16-18, 36

The nature of the book: The inspired Word of God--accepted by all the early believers as accurately recorded by the Holy Spirit.

This is not responsive to my challenge (see Post No. 9 supra which asked for anyone who wrote between 100 and 1550). However, scripture does not teach OSAS. Look at John 3:18-21.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

In v. 18 it shows that those who "believeth not" are condemned. "Believeth not" obviously includes those who once believed but stopped believing. Then the next three verses say nothing about faith or belief at all, but rather focus on deeds, i.e., WORKS.

My proof tests are a lot more numerous than your proof texts, but I will start with James 5:19-20. Here, James is talking about rescuing those who have fallen away. If they can fall away and still be saved, why bother with rescuing them?

Since no one has even attempted to respond to my challenge, I will assume that God allowed mankind to live in complete darkness of understanding from 100 to the time of Calvin, c. 1550. Or, perhaps it was Calvin who brought about the darkness of understanding?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
The Scriptures, completely and verbally inspired by God and, therefore, inerrant.

How about that!

Response Posted by thinkingstuff
How were the scriptures compiled then? Who determined that they were inspired by God? You will find the same people you base no claim in.

I have no idea what you mean by the third sentence! Do you?

I have not personally met the men who compiled the Scripture but I have personally met their author. Scripture itself bears witness to the Old Testament which existed at the time of Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:
16. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Romans 14:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I have the same confidence in the New Testament that peter and Paul had in the Old. Some people think it is cute or a sign of intelligence to question the inerrancy of Scripture. I think it is stupid! If I can't trust Scripture then I have no hope of eternal Salvation. As the Apostle Pail told the Corinthians: "we are of all men most miserable."

 

[Amy.G]

Look at John 3:18-21. In v. 18 it shows that those who "believeth not" are condemned. "Believeth not" obviously includes those who once believed but stopped believing.

I does not obviously include those who stopped believing. You are adding that. The text does not say that.


Joh*3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Combine that verse with this verse:

Joh*10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


What does Jesus mean by NEVER perish?

Never:
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.

If you can never perish, explain to me how you can perish.

 

[DHK]

This is not responsive to my challenge (see Post No. 9 supra which asked for anyone who wrote between 100 and 1550). However, scripture does not teach OSAS.

Your point of view. What to say; but that it is just plain wrong.

Look at John 3:18-21. In v. 18 it shows that those who "believeth not" are condemned. "Believeth not" obviously includes those who once believed but stopped believing.

obviously!!!
That obvious is a supposition that you are reading into the text.
There is nothing there to suggest those that once believed but stopped believing. You have a fanciful imagination and a pitiful way of butchering Scripture.
Those that believe not are condemned already. They never believed in the first place. It is a straight forward statement.

My proof tests are a lot more numerous than your proof texts, but I will start with James 5:19-20. Here, James is talking about rescuing those who have fallen away. If they can fall away and still be saved, why bother with rescuing them?

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
--Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."
The verse is speaking to Christians. It starts out "Brethren...", addressed to Christians.
The word "death" is speaking of physical death, not eternal death.
The people are Christians and cannot fall away from eternal salvation. That is not what James is speaking of. However, like every Christian, any believer can backslide and fall into sin. That does not mean they lose their salvation. They, like David, need to repent of their sin, that their fellowship might be restored (not their salvation). If they repent, then that person will be saved from an early physical death; he will be "turned" (meaning of converted) from his sinful way, and a multitude of sins will be hidden from the public's eye (had he gone on in his public sinful lifestyle). If he will not repent, then it is very possible that the Lord will "kill" him, or take him out of this world via an early death to spare the name of Christ from being blasphemed any further. That is what the passage means. Compare with 1Cor.11:30 where the Lord judged these believers with sickness and death for abusing the Lord's Supper. None of these lost their salvation.

Since no one has even attempted to respond to my challenge, I will assume that God allowed mankind to live in complete darkness of understanding from 100 to the time of Calvin, c. 1550. Or, perhaps it was Calvin who brought about the darkness of understanding?

Yes there was darkness. In 1495 God allowed man to invent the printing press. You are speaking of an error prior to 1500 when there was no printing press and written documentation is hard to come by. It is hard to come by for you to prove that one can lose their salvation (Your quotes were weak in substance). And they are hard to come by for others as well. What would you expect for documentation in times of antiquity?

 

[Zenas]

DHK:

Your point of view. What to say; but that it is just plain wrong.

My point of view, but I'm in good company. It is the point of view held by all Christians everywhere until the time of Calvin and still held by the overwhelming majority of all Christians.

DHK:

obviously!!!
That obvious is a supposition that you are reading into the text.
There is nothing there to suggest those that once believed but stopped believing. You have a fanciful imagination and a pitiful way of butchering Scripture.
Those that believe not are condemned already. They never believed in the first place. It is a straight forward statement.

No, it is you who reads things into the text that aren't there. Of course reference to he that "believeth not" includes those who never believed in the first place. It also includes all other nonbelievers, such as those who once believed and now do not. There are no words of limitation here and to add a limitation such as you have done is twisting scripture to fit your preconceived notion of what it ought to say. You said it yourself, DHK, "Words have meanings." See Post #84, supra.

DHK:

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
--Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."
The verse is speaking to Christians. It starts out "Brethren...", addressed to Christians.
The word "death" is speaking of physical death, not eternal death.
The people are Christians and cannot fall away from eternal salvation. That is not what James is speaking of. However, like every Christian, any believer can backslide and fall into sin. That does not mean they lose their salvation. They, like David, need to repent of their sin, that their fellowship might be restored (not their salvation). If they repent, then that person will be saved from an early physical death; he will be "turned" (meaning of converted) from his sinful way, and a multitude of sins will be hidden from the public's eye (had he gone on in his public sinful lifestyle). If he will not repent, then it is very possible that the Lord will "kill" him, or take him out of this world via an early death to spare the name of Christ from being blasphemed any further. That is what the passage means. Compare with 1Cor.11:30 where the Lord judged these believers with sickness and death for abusing the Lord's Supper. None of these lost their salvation.

Ah, yes, the old concept that James is talking about physical death. I understand why you do this because you can't possibly interpret this to mean death of the soul. If you do, then you have James affirming conditional security. However, there are only two Bible translations that could be so construed--the NIV and the HCSB--and these are published by people who also advocate OSAS. All the others say "save his soul from death" or something very close to this. Words have meanings, so let's not try to make one word mean something else.

As for 1 Corinthians 11, you are right. Paul was talking about actual physical illness and physical death. But nowhere does Paul talk about your soul being sick or your soul dying.

DHK:

Yes there was darkness. In 1495 God allowed man to invent the printing press. You are speaking of an error prior to 1500 when there was no printing press and written documentation is hard to come by. It is hard to come by for you to prove that one can lose their salvation (Your quotes were weak in substance). And they are hard to come by for others as well. What would you expect for documentation in times of antiquity?

Maybe my quotes were weak in substance. How about these, both written by Tertullian circa 200?

Some think that God is under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy what He has promised to give. So, they turn His liberality into His slavery. For many afterward fall out of grace. Is not this gift taken away from many?

God has foreseen that faith even after baptism would be endangered. He saw that most persons after obtaining salvation would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.

I'm not asking for tomes of literature but just proof that someone somewhere adhered to OSAS between 100 and 1550.

 

[steaver]

I'm not asking for tomes of literature but just proof that someone somewhere adhered to OSAS between 100 and 1550.

Hey Zenas, I am curious as to where you find these Christian writers. Do you have any resource that provides a list of all Christian writers from this time span that I could access? I mean, how would I find a proponant of OSAS, if any exist, from the time you request. How did you find the ones you quote?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Maybe my quotes were weak in substance. How about these, both written by Tertullian circa 200?

I checked out Tertullian and he was an advocate for water baptism being required for eternal life. If he was this far off on being "born again" then I'm not so sure I would quote him for anything else.

Tertullian; HAPPY iS our sacrament Of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Tertullian;


CHAP. VI.--THE ANGEL THE FORERUNNER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. MEANING CONTAINED IN THE BAPTISMAL FORMULA. Not that in the waters we obtain the Holy Spirit; but in the water, under (the witness of) the angel, we are cleansed, and prepared for the Holy Spirit. In this case also a type has preceded; for thus was John beforehand the Lord's forerunner, "preparing His ways." Thus, too, does the angel, the witness of baptism, "make the paths straight" for the Holy Spirit, who is about to come upon us, by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, obtains. For if "in the mouth of three witnesses every word shall stand:"--while, through the benediction, we have the same (three) as witnesses of our faith whom we have as sureties' of our salvation too--how much more does the number of the divine names suffice for the assurance of our hope likewise! Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under "three witnesses," there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,) there is the Church, which is a body of three.

CHAP. XII.--OF THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM TO SALVATION.


CHAP. XIII.--ANOTHER OBJECTION: ABRAHAM PLEASED GOD WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED. ANSWER THERETO. OLD THINGS MUST GIVE PLACE TO NEW, AND BAPTISM IS NOW A LAW.
Grant that, in days gone by, there was salvation by means of bare faith, before the passion and resurrection of the Lord. But now that faith has been enlarged, and is become a faith which believes in His nativity, passion, and resurrection, there has been an amplification added w the sacrament, viz., the sealing act of baptism; the clothing, in some sense, of the faith which before was bare, and which cannot exist now without its proper law. For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The comparison with this law of that definition, "Unless a man have been reborn of water and Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens," has tied faith to the necessity of baptism.

 

[steaver]

Here is what I have observed from reading Tertullian;

It is clear that there were Christians objecting to his beliefs that baptism in water was necessary for salvation for he went to great lengths to promote it in his writings.

Same could be true for eternal security. Apparantly there were Christians arguing with his beliefs and so he feels a need to ask the questions in his writings.

Most Christians probably felt no need to write more papers on the subject to support OSAS because they felt they already had the Apostle's writings themselves.

Some think that God is under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy what He has promised to give. So, they turn His liberality into His slavery. For many afterward fall out of grace. Is not this gift taken away from many?

God has foreseen that faith even after baptism would be endangered. He saw that most persons after obtaining salvation would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.

:jesus:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

"Ah, yes the old concept that James is talking about physical death..."

You err saying in your own interpret of James 5:19-20. No, James was not speaking of 'death' is physical. Rather, this is speaking of spiritual with warning. 'Death' represents of everlasting separate from God in hell according Romans 6:23.

In Ezekiel chapter 18 describes about warning of remain in wicked life, which would lead to death. That chapter is clear speaking of spiritual life with practical walk. Ezekiel chapter 18 warns us, if we still walk in wicked ways, and not repent of sins, will bring us to death, which speak of everlasting punishment in hell. Unless, if we turn from wicked and do the right things, shall live. 'Live', which speak of spiritually life pictured as eternal life.

Luke 15:11-32 is a perfect example of the prodigal son. This passage tells us, the younger son was with his father in the first place, that means, a follower was already belong to Christ at the first place. When a younger son tells his father that, he decides want to leave him, go in his own ways. Every individual have own choice and freewill with decision. Christ cannot force us to do the right things.

Luke 15:11-32 tells us, while younger son is remain in wicked way, he is already lost and dead, That means, he is continue practically walk in the dark for long period without repent, therefore, he is already lost and dead. It is clearly speak of spiritually, NOT physical. Also, this passage telling us clear, what if suppose, young son is continue remain in the dark all the way to his death(physical), then, he is remain 'lost' and 'dead' ALWAYS, that means, his spiritual is lost and dead is IN the hell, because of without repentance. When young son realizes that, he is already in misery, and feel unworthy for his father. So, he decides turn back to his father. This is speak of repentance. When his father sees his young son coming toward him. He immediately run and brace his son. This shows that God is longsuffering toward us that He doesn't want all of us go perish, but come to repentance according 2 Peter 3:9. Also, this show us that, God doesn't force us to repentance immediately. He always patience with us. God knows when the right time to come, as our life is about to be appointed to death-Heb. 9:27.

When God sees any person is continue stay in the dark, and refuse to repent for long time, God have the rights to be fed up with person, to make person appoint to death, when the right time.

Ezekiel chapter 18 clearly telling us, when the "rightesous" person turn FROM his rightesous, to walk in the evils ways, will lead to death. This is very, very clear speaking toward us as followers/Christians, who are already saved at first place. IF we turn away FROM the rightesous, and remain in wicked ways, it will lead us to death, which speak of everlasting separate from God in hell.

Therefore, James 5:19,20 saying the same thing with Ezekiel chapter 18. If a brethren(follower/Christian) turn away and walk in the evil ways will lead to death, that means, what if a Christian turn away from the Lord, and walk in the wicked ways for long time without repent to God, it will lead to death- lake of fire (Romans 6:23; and Rev. 20:14). Our responsible, if we see our brethren/sister who already turn away from the Lord, we must warning them with love and encourage them need to get right with the Lord, to save their souls from death. If we don't, we allow them on their ways to their everlasting destruction.

See?

James 5:19,20 do not support eternal security or OSAS doctrine. It is very clearly conditional with warning.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Zenas]

Hey Zenas, I am curious as to where you find these Christian writers. Do you have any resource that provides a list of all Christian writers from this time span that I could access? I mean, how would I find a proponant of OSAS, if any exist, from the time you request. How did you find the ones you quote?

:jesus:

Mostly on the Internet using Google. However, I own a 3-volume set called Faith of the Early Fathers, William A. Jurgens, ed., that has an extensive topical index, which I also use as a search engine and a verifier of what I locate elsewhere. It starts with the Didache and goes through John Damascene, who died about 749.

 

[Zenas]

I checked out Tertullian and he was an advocate for water baptism being required for eternal life. If he was this far off on being "born again" then I'm not so sure I would quote him for anything else.



:jesus:

Just as they are unanimous on the matter of conditional security, I think you will find that everything published before 1550 agrees that John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism. The concept that being born again refers to anything but water baptism did not catch on until well after the Reformation. But that can be the topic of another thread.

 

[Amy.G]

Those of you who do not believe in eternal security, please explain this verse to me.

Joh*10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amy.G,

Firstly, Christ said of John 10:27-29, He promises us, that, no one can pluck us out of His hand, because He gives us eternal life, and we will never go perish to hell. Those who HEAR and FOLLOW Christ at the same time. If anyone who will stop follow Christ afterward, He would loose person out of his hand, same with Luke 15:11-32. When a young son want to leave his father same as an individual believer who want to leave Christ, that means do not want to follow Christ anymore. Christ cannot force us to stay with him all the time, same common sense, he cannot hold us in his hand so tightly all the time. He gives us the choices to make decision. If we stop follow Him, He would not hold us in his hand, unless till we turn back and stay following him, long as we are secure in Christ to have eternal life.

We know that 'eternal' means forever and ever without end.

But, we not yet get eternal life, we are still in battleground(spiritual warfare), once we overcome them at death, then will be victory and possess eternal life.

in 1 Timothy 6:12 telling us that we MUST HOLD our eternal life, if we endure to the end. Or, if we fail to hold eternal life, then we cannot have eternal life. See?

Both Jesus and Paul telling us that salvation is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

Just as they are unanimous on the matter of conditional security, I think you will find that everything published before 1550 agrees that John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism. The concept that being born again refers to anything but water baptism did not catch on until well after the Reformation. But that can be the topic of another thread.

That makes your argument based on history very weak.
It makes the argument based on sola scriptural very strong.
I stay with Scripture and avoid the ECF, etc.