Once Saved, Always Saved

[awaken]

THis scripture has always come up when I am trying to defend OSAS..just wondering how you reply to this.

"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love." (John 15:4-10)

Jesus said that it's up to us to remain in Him. He also said that if we don't remain in Him then we're like a branch that is thrown into the fire! Consider that in this passage Jesus made such statements as "remain in me," and "if a man remains in me," and "if anyone does not remain in me," and "if you remain in me," and "[if] my words remain in you," and "remain in my love," and "if you obey my commands." These are conditions! Jesus was telling us to continually remain in an intimate, loving relationship with Him, and to obey what's written in the Bible.

I always go back to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. "...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

So how do you defend OSAS when confronted with John 15?

 

[OldRegular]

Let me ask all of you for your opinion on something: Do you think it's possible for a person who does not believe the OSAS doctrine to be a Southern Baptist pastor?

I am sure there are some but in my opinion they should go to the Free Will Baptists!

 

[OldRegular]

It does not deny the character of God but rather affirms an essential aspect of it -- freedom. And I can assure you that I am not miserable; I rejoice in knowing God who gave me the most priceless gift other than His love -- freedom.

Tell us! Any sin is an affront to God. Tell us just what causes a man to be lost again! What would cause God to withdraw His love and your freedom.

 

[Zenas]

Like "awaken" in Post 21, I have a scripture that I'm curious how to approach in view of the doctrine of OSAS. In the parable of the two debtors in Matthew 18:23-35, the master forgives his servant 10,000 talents. Then that servant refuses to forgive his under servant the measly sum of 100 denarii. Upon learning of this the master revokes his servant's forgiveness and "handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." Jesus concluded the parable with: "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

This appears to be an example of one who is saved having his salvation revoked for failure to forgive.

 

[kyredneck]

....Jesus said that it's up to us to remain in Him.....

AGREE!

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14

...He also said that if we don't remain in Him then we're like a branch that is thrown into the fire!

Are you reading 'eternity in hell' into that statement? I suggest to you that the 'the wrath to come' upon that generation is what is being alluded to here.

Consider that in this passage Jesus made such statements as "remain in me," and "if a man remains in me," and "if anyone does not remain in me," and "if you remain in me," and "[if] my words remain in you," and "remain in my love," and "if you obey my commands." These are conditions! Jesus was telling us to continually remain in an intimate, loving relationship with Him, and to obey what's written in the Bible.

Christ was speaking to His disciples concerning the judgement which was soon to come upon the nation of Israel and the consequences to those particular [Jewish] Christians of that particular generation of falling away from the covenant of grace and returning to apostate Judaism.

I always go back to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. "...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

This would be one of those instances where 'sozo' is used in the eternal sense.

So how do you defend OSAS when confronted with John 15?

Why do you think Jn 15 has anything to do with the doctrine of perseverance of the Saints?

 

[awaken]

AGREE!

......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23

Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14



Are you reading 'eternity in hell' into that statement? I suggest to you that the 'the wrath to come' upon that generation is what is being alluded to here.



Christ was speaking to His disciples concerning the judgement which was soon to come upon the nation of Israel and the consequences to those particular [Jewish] Christians of that particular generation of falling away from the covenant of grace and returning to apostate Judaism.



This would be one of those instances where 'sozo' is used in the eternal sense.



Why do you think Jn 15 has anything to do with the doctrine of perseverence of the Saints?

Doesn't it say We are in Him and then we are not?

 

[awaken]

Then they come up with.....

"I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:13-22)

The people I have talk to in the past believe in "conditional salvation"... They say that this scripture tells us to fear.

When I look at this passage closely...I see Paul said that he hoped to arouse his own people (the Jews) to envy in order to save some of them. Then he said that these unsaved Jews are "branches" which have been cut off because of unbelief, and he told the saved Gentiles that they are "wild branches" which have been grafted in because of their faith in Jesus. Paul was talking to Gentile Christians, and he said that it's up to them to continue in Christ. This is a condition! Otherwise, Paul said, the Gentile Christians will also be "cut off," just like the unsaved Jews who were cut off because of their unbelief.

I have been taught OSAS all my life and I believe the study of the blood covenant proves it. But it is still hard to explain some scriputures like the one above...

 

[kyredneck]

Doesn't it say We are in Him and then we are not?

You mean in the sense that the one in 1 Cor 5:5 was 'in Him' and then was not?

Your problem here is that you are inserting eternal consequences into passages where eternal consequences is not what is intended.

That's exactly what 99.9999% of evangelical Christianity does with the word 'sozo' [saved].

 

[awaken]

You mean in the sense that the one in 1 Cor 5:5 was 'in Him' and then was not?

Your problem here is that you are inserting eternal consequences into passages where eternal consequences is not what is intended.

No, 1 Cor. 3:11-15 is how I have always defended OSAS! The scriptures that I posted before that is the one I am referring too!

 

[kyredneck]

No, 1 Cor. 3:11-15 is how I have always defended OSAS! The scriptures that I posted before that is the one I am referring too!

You don't see that 1 Cor 5:5 is inferring EXACTLY the same thing as what you're presenting in 1 Cor 3:11-15? These passages are at the heart and core of the doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints.

 

[kyredneck]

Like "awaken" in Post 21, I have a scripture that I'm curious how to approach in view of the doctrine of OSAS. In the parable of the two debtors in Matthew 18:23-35, the master forgives his servant 10,000 talents. Then that servant refuses to forgive his under servant the measly sum of 100 denarii. Upon learning of this the master revokes his servant's forgiveness and "handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." Jesus concluded the parable with: "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

This appears to be an example of one who is saved having his salvation revoked for failure to forgive.

Where/how/why do you derive eternal consequences from that passage/parable?

 

[Zenas]

Where/how/why do you derive eternal consequences from that passage/parable?

1 Talent = 15 years' wages
10,000 talents = 150,000 years' wages

The man would have to work for 150,000 years to repay what he owed. Since no one lives anywhere near that long, it means he never gets out jail. Therefore it is for eternity.

 

[kyredneck]

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.
35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts. Mt 18

1 Talent = 15 years' wages
10,000 talents = 150,000 years' wages

The man would have to work for 150,000 years to repay what he owed. Since no one lives anywhere near that long, it means he never gets out jail. Therefore it is for eternity.

"till he should pay all that was due" implies a block of time, not eternity. Even if it's for the rest of this one's life here on earth it's NOT eternity, although it could seem that way.

Christ was answering Peter, a disciple, a redeemed born from above child of God, when He said "So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you".

Do you make this to be a 'heaven or hell' passage also?:

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7

You are inserting eternal consequences into the context of Mt 18:23-35.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Tell us! Any sin is an affront to God. Tell us just what causes a man to be lost again! What would cause God to withdraw His love and your freedom.

A deliberate, willful, free choosing to turn his back on God and reject his salvation. God does not force anyone to remain a Christian, just as He does not force anyone to become a Christian. He draws but does not force.

 

[Zenas]

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.
35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts. Mt 18



"till he should pay all that was due" implies a block of time, not eternity. Even if it's for the rest of this one's life here on earth it's NOT eternity, although it could seem that way.

Christ was answering Peter, a disciple, a redeemed born from above child of God, when He said "So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you".

Do you make this to be a 'heaven or hell' passage also?:

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7

You are inserting eternal consequences into the context of Mt 18:23-35.

This is a parable. It relates a situation in time, and the clear implication is that the servant owes such a large amount to his master that he will never get out of jail as long as he lives. Now you can take this in a literalistic fashion and conclude that Jesus was talking about some kind of temporal punishment, or you can take it to refer to the hereafter which I believe Jesus meant to do.

Transpose this to the hereafter and you have a man whose enormous sins were wiped clean by the mercy of God. Then he refuses to forgive even a small transgression and God revokes His forgiveness and sends him to hell forever. The correlation is that he never gets out in the parable; he never gets out in eternity.

As far as Christ talking to Peter, a redeemed believer, you are assuming that Peter could not lose his salvation. You're talking to one who clearly believes he can lose his salvation, and you're trying to explain this parable. So you are going to be met with the response, "So what if it was Peter?"

So, Ky. Redneck, what is your explanation of the parable?

The Galatians passage is less clear. It juxtaposes "corruption" and "eternal life." Frankly I don't know what Paul is referring to when he says "corruption." It could be a physical rotting of the body or it could be a spoilage of the soul.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am sure there are some but in my opinion they should go to the Free Will Baptists!

The Free Will Baptists are very legalistic.

So, here's another question. If there are Southern Baptist pastors who do not believe OSAS, do you suppose they can preach and teach against it?

I think I'll start a separate thread on this.

 

[SovereignMercy]

People who fall way we're never converted in the first place. Michael Wrenn like many others on this forum have their own format of Jefferson's bible where they black out every text they don't like.

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

 

[Michael Wrenn]

People who fall way we're never converted in the first place. Michael Wrenn like many others on this forum have their own format of Jefferson's bible where they black out every text they don't like.

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

What a lie!

But that's what you do with Hebrews 6 and other passages.

 

[drfuss]

People who fall way we're never converted in the first place. Michael Wrenn like many others on this forum have their own format of Jefferson's bible where they black out every text they don't like.

The above is one version of the doctrine of eternal security, indicating that a True Christian cannot or will not stop believing.

There are two other versions of the doctrine of eternal security.

The Calvinist version says that the elect will perservere until the end. Those who stop believing were not really a part of the elect.

The Charles Stanley version of the doctrine of eternal security says that a True Christian can stop believing and will still go to heaven.

Note that the Stanley Version of the doctruine of eternal security contradicts the first version above. One says a True Christian can stop trusting in Christ and the other says a True Christion cannot/will not stop trusting in Christ.

I suggst that future discussion indicate which version the poster is talking about.

 

[OldRegular]

A deliberate, willful, free choosing to turn his back on God and reject his salvation. God does not force anyone to remain a Christian, just as He does not force anyone to become a Christian. He draws but does not force.

So you think jesus Christ was mistaken when He said:

John 10:28-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

If the above Scripture is not to be believed why did Holy God cause it to be written down? Or is it that you pick and choose those things you wish to believe/