Once Saved, Always Saved

[Michael Wrenn]

So you think jesus Christ was mistaken when He said:

John 10:28-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

If the above Scripture is not to be believed why did Holy God cause it to be written down? Or is it that you pick and choose those things you wish to believe/

It says no man is able to pluck them out of God's hand, and I agree. It does not say that they may not choose to remove themselves from God's hand.

I have scripture to support my view, as I have noted many times on here.

So, I'll ask you what you asked me: Do you pick and choose those things you wish to believe?

 

[kyredneck]

...or you can take it to refer to the hereafter which I believe Jesus meant to do.

Again, from post #31:

"Where/how/why do you derive eternal consequences from that passage/parable?"

WHY are you reading the 'hereafter' into the context? What is there in the context of the passage that points to the 'hereafter'?

To me the moral of the story is no different than the Galatians statement concerning 'reaping what you sow', or:

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you. Mt 7:2

There's nothing new here, God has always dealt with His own in this temporal realm in this manner. Nothing new or strange here.

 

[OldRegular]

It says no man is able to pluck them out of God's hand, and I agree. It does not say that they may not choose to remove themselves from God's hand

Then you are saying that "eternal life" does not mean "eternal life" but can mean "eternal death". You are saying "no man" does not mean "no man"?


John 10:28-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

The Scripture means exactly what it says!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Then you are saying that "eternal life" does not mean "eternal life" but can mean "eternal death". You are saying "no man" does not mean "no man"?


John 10:28-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

The Scripture means exactly what it says!

And it says that no man is able to pluck them; it does not say that they cannot remove themselves. Human beings have free will; God created us with it because that's who God is; thus, we are not robots. God does not forcibly bring us to Him or forcibly keep us once we come.

 

[Zenas]

There's nothing new here, God has always dealt with His own in this temporal realm in this manner. Nothing new or strange here.

That's just not true, no matter how much you or I wish it were. I have lived a long time and cannot discern any difference in the fortunes of believers and nonbelievers. True, the believers enjoy the virtue of hope but they have the same health, family and financial problems as anyone else. I see no evidence that God punishes people on this side of eternity.

 

[kyredneck]

.... I see no evidence that God punishes people on this side of eternity.

Just one of many many many many many many many such passages: what is this if it is not 'punishment on this side of eternity'?:

Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 2 Sam 12:10

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Then you are saying that "eternal life" does not mean "eternal life" but can mean "eternal death". You are saying "no man" does not mean "no man"?


John 10:28-30
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

The Scripture means exactly what it says!

And it says that no man is able to pluck them; it does not say that they cannot remove themselves. Human beings have free will; God created us with it because that's who God is; thus, we are not robots. God does not forcibly bring us to Him or forcibly keep us once we come.

God created Adam and Eve with free will. They lost it for themselves and all mankind! You can no more choose God of your own free will than you can sprout wings and fly!

Furthermore, you are ignoring the part where Jesus Christ states: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,


You are making a liar out of Jesus Christ. As the above passage shows: He gives eternal life and His sheep shall never perish. You can't pick and choose what you like to believe; though why anyone would want to believe in losing their Salvation is beyond me.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

God created Adam and Eve with free will. They lost it for themselves and all mankind! You can no more choose God of your own free will than you can sprout wings and fly!

Furthermore, you are ignoring the part where Jesus Christ states: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,


You are making a liar out of Jesus Christ. As the above passage shows: He gives eternal life and His sheep shall never perish. You can't pick and choose what you like to believe; though why anyone would want to believe in losing their Salvation is beyond me.

They did not lose free will; their will was damaged, but their freedom was not taken away or destroyed.

I am not making a liar out of Jesus. Of course He gives eternal life to those who "persevere to the end." But if they don't, if they turn their back on God and reject their salvation, they by their own free will choose to forfeit their salvation.

You're right: you can't pick and choose what you like to believe, so why are you doing it by ignoring the many passages that teach that believers can turn away and reject their salvation?

It's not a matter of wanting to believe in losing salvation, it's a matter of believing that freedom of contrary choice is such an essential part of God's character that He bestowed it upon all His sentient beings. It is as essential to Whom God is as is love. Because He loved us and wanted us to choose to love Him, He gave us freedom. That's why we're in the mess we're in: Lucifer had the freedom to be loyal or rebel; he and his angel followers rebelled. Adam and Eve were given the freedom to follow God or rebel and listen to the serpent; they CHOSE to rebel. Their will and nature were thus weakened, and also that of their posterity. But God approaches humans with prevenient grace to aid, not force, their weakened wills to respond to Him. If they do respond and accept His offer of salvation, then they are regenerated. And God helps them in their walk. However, they still have the freedom to reject their new status, turn their backs on God, renounce their faith, and lose their salvation if they remain finally impenitent.

This does justice to God's drawing, His striving with humans, and His desire that they love Him and follow him of their own choice. As it was in the beginning, in heaven, so it is now: God does not compel anyone's loyalty or love; if He did, it would not truly be either loyalty or love.

Your view: those who are saved will endure to the end. My view: Those who endure to the end will be saved. Which is the way God dealt with His sentient beings from the beginning -- compelled loyalty with no freedom to choose, or voluntary loyalty with that freedom? All through the Bible, this freedom of contrary choice is affirmed. It is an essential aspect of the character of God.

 

[Zenas]

Just one of many many many many many many many such passages: what is this if it is not 'punishment on this side of eternity'?:

Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 2 Sam 12:10

Yes, scripture speaks of it often but I never saw it happen. Of course certain sins are crimes and carry jail time because theyare crimes but that is man's punishment, not God's. Scripture also says God sends rain on the just and the unjust. You're entitled to your opinion but you're the first person with whom I ever discussed this parable that thought Jesus was talking about temporal punishment.

 

[awaken]

Here is another verse some people use to teach against OSAS...

"And do not grumble, as some of them did--and were killed by the destroying angel. These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:10-12)

Here Paul was warning us that some of the Israelites in Moses' time were killed by the destroying angel. Then he said that we need to be careful that we don't fall. This is another warning against falling away from the faith. Does "falling away" from the faith mean that we lose our salvation?

When I look at the OT examples like this one...I see they applied the blood on the door in Egypt, this is a picture of our salvation. So I do not see that this verse can take the blood off the door. Our Journey with God on this earth can be cut short..but I do not see it taking away our salvation. What do you guys think?

 

[OldRegular]

Your view: those who are saved will endure to the end. My view: Those who endure to the end will be saved. Which is the way God dealt with His sentient beings from the beginning -- compelled loyalty with no freedom to choose, or voluntary loyalty with that freedom? All through the Bible, this freedom of contrary choice is affirmed. It is an essential aspect of the character of God.

Your view is that man is the master of his salvation, that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ accomplished nothing. That is a pathetic view of God.

 

[12strings]

Your view: those who are saved will endure to the end. My view: Those who endure to the end will be saved. Which is the way God dealt with His sentient beings from the beginning -- compelled loyalty with no freedom to choose, or voluntary loyalty with that freedom? All through the Bible, this freedom of contrary choice is affirmed. It is an essential aspect of the character of God.

So when we are in heaven in eternity future, will there be people who all of the sudden decide to reject God's rule and get booted out?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Your view is that man is the master of his salvation, that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ accomplished nothing. That is a pathetic view of God.

That is a lie and you know it. And that is pathetic.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

So when we are in heaven in eternity future, will there be people who all of the sudden decide to reject God's rule and get booted out?

It's possible. If it happened once, it could happen again. I don't believe God ever takes away our freedom to choose. If He did, we would be nothing more than robots, and robots can't give love or receive it.

 

[OldRegular]

Here is another verse some people use to teach against OSAS...

"And do not grumble, as some of them did--and were killed by the destroying angel. These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:10-12)

Here Paul was warning us that some of the Israelites in Moses' time were killed by the destroying angel. Then he said that we need to be careful that we don't fall. This is another warning against falling away from the faith. Does "falling away" from the faith mean that we lose our salvation?

When I look at the OT examples like this one...I see they applied the blood on the door in Egypt, this is a picture of our salvation. So I do not see that this verse can take the blood off the door. Our Journey with God on this earth can be cut short..but I do not see it taking away our salvation. What do you guys think?

You are correct. In my opinion the term "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a trite expression of a wonderful doctrine, the Perseverance of the Saints or the Security of the Believer. God will bring those whose sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ to Salvation and life eternal in His presence. The Bible teaches this, the nature of God requires this, and I believe this. The 1646 London Confession says it well!

Jesus Christ by His death did purchase salvation for the elect that God gave unto Him: These only have interest in Him, and fellowship with Him, for whom He makes intercession to His Father in their behalf, and to them alone doth God by His Spirit apply this redemption; as also the free gift of eternal life is given to them, and none else.

Eph. 1:14; Heb. 5:9; Matt. 1:21; John 17:6; Heb. 7:25; 1 Cor. 2:12; Rom. 8:29,30; 1 John 5:12; John 15:35, 3:16.

XXII.

Faith is the gift of God, wrought in the hearts of the elect by the Spirit of God; by which faith they come to know and believe the truth of the Scriptures, and the excellency of them above all other writings, and all things in the world, as they hold forth the glory of God in His attributes, the execellency of Christ in His nature and offices, and of the power and fulness of the Spirit in its [His] workings and operations; and so are enabled to cast their souls upon His truth thus believed.

Eph. 2:8; John 6:29, 4:10; Phil. 1:29; Gal. 5:22; John 17:17; Heb. 4:11,12; John 6:63.

XXIII.

All those that have this precious faith wrought in them by the Spirit, can never finally nor totally fall away; seeing the gifts of God are without repentance; so that He still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise, and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock, which by faith they are fastened upon; not withstanding, through unbelief, and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of this light and love, be clouded and overwhelmed for a time; yet God is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palms of His hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, scripture speaks of it often but I never saw it happen. Of course certain sins are crimes and carry jail time because theyare crimes but that is man's punishment, not God's. Scripture also says God sends rain on the just and the unjust. You're entitled to your opinion but you're the first person with whom I ever discussed this parable that thought Jesus was talking about temporal punishment.

C'mon Zenas, surely you're not telling me that you've gone without chastening.

 

[convicted1]

If we don't have the power to graft ourselves in(and we don't), then we don't have the power to cut ourselves out, either.

 

[awaken]

If we don't have the power to graft ourselves in(and we don't), then we don't have the power to cut ourselves out, either.

But will God..that grafts in... will he cut us off because of unbelief?
This is the questions that I come against....

 

[convicted1]

Jesus was talking to the Jews here, His chosen people. At that time, they were still under the Law, because Jesus had not yet been crucified, and arisen. Here's a passage to "chew" on:





Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.






Under the Law, man could break it because it was "works based", and if they didn't follow it, they were goners.






Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:






Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Under the Law, their sins were remembered every year, that is why the High Priest would enter into the innermost part of the tabernacle, to make a once a year atonement. Jesus fulfilled this, and He is now our High Priest.





We are now under the Grace Covenant now. We can not, and will not, break this covenant betwixt God and us.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Jesus was talking to the Jews here, His chosen people. At that time, they were still under the Law, because Jesus had not yet been crucified, and arisen. Here's a passage to "chew" on:





Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.






Under the Law, man could break it because it was "works based", and if they didn't follow it, they were goners.






Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:






Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Under the Law, their sins were remembered every year, that is why the High Priest would enter into the innermost part of the tabernacle, to make a once a year atonement. Jesus fulfilled this, and He is now our High Priest.





We are now under the Grace Covenant now. We can not, and will not, break this covenant betwixt God and us.

So, tell me: When did God remove our right and ability to choose? If we cannot choose, then our humanity is only an illusion.