Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

[Chemnitz]

Chemnitz, I thought you finally understood and then you go and mix it up again.

Why can't you all see that GOD "BACAME A MAN IN THE FLESH?" It's so plain! He was/is still the SPIRIT, but chose to come to Earth as a man.

He had feelings, ate, slept, prayed, wept, loved, cried, and numerous other things, AS A HUMAN!

Whew! Why can't you see that? Jesus was Jehovah of the OT and the Messiah of the NT. ONE GOD! Also, I might add, that "HE" is the "SPIRIT" that dwells in humanity.

Still one God, just three "manifestations." Not three different persons.

What I am not the one having trouble understanding "For God so loved the world, [7] that he gave his only Son"

I really don't see how you can say that they are one in the same person.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Chemnitz, I thought you finally understood and then you go and mix it up again.

Why can't you all see that GOD "BACAME A MAN IN THE FLESH?" It's so plain! He was/is still the SPIRIT, but chose to come to Earth as a man.

He had feelings, ate, slept, prayed, wept, loved, cried, and numerous other things, AS A HUMAN!

Whew! Why can't you see that? Jesus was Jehovah of the OT and the Messiah of the NT. ONE GOD! Also, I might add, that "HE" is the "SPIRIT" that dwells in humanity.

Still one God, just three "manifestations." Not three different persons.

What I am not the one having trouble understanding "For God so loved the world, [7] that he gave his only Son"

I really don't see how you can say that they are one in the same person.</font>[/QUOTE]What you are not seeing is that I do see what John 3:16 is saying. For God (being a Spirit) so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten "SON" (referring to the flesh) that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Meaning, that God came to Earth, through the blood line of David, through Mary, and became the supreme sacrifice, for the sins of the world.

He didn't send his little boy, as most see it, God give his life. Jehovah of the OT took on himself a "BODY" inorder to shed "HIS BLOOD." A Spirit does not have blood. SEE?

MEE

[ September 13, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Do you want me to reply to anything?

You interpret that the "Father" talking to the Son. It does not say the Father, and it does not say the son. It say GOD said. Now If God is a Trinity than the trinity was speaking to some fourth person.

And I am still waiting on you to tell me who that fouth person was.

I have been waiting for you to respond to these verses for quite some time now.

Let's start with this one. If Jesus IS the Father, then how can there be two witnesses to Christ? The law says there must be two witnesses (not one witness with two attributes) and Christ said that he was one witness and his Father was the other.

So, is there or is there not a valid witness to Christ? If not, then Christ didn't fulfill the law. If so, you must admit that Christ is not the Father.

We can get to the rest of the verses later. As Chemnitz said, the other question has been answered more then once. I would like to point out that you still have not offered one yourself. (Speculation does not count, for it isn't an answer, it is a guess)

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Just want you to know, that I see it and I am not going to ignore it. I am haveing a really hetic day here at work, so please bare with me.

God bless

BTW, I am not talking about the trintiy, LOL, Im talking about the question.

[ September 13, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Lorelei]

I found this interesting:

5 verses prior to John 3:16 we see this statement by Christ.

John 3:11
11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

Who is the we of this testimony?

Jesus scolded Nicodemus for being a teacher of Israel and still not understanding these things. As a teacher of Isreal, Nicodemus surely knew that it took two witnesses to validate a testimony. If Christ was saying he was only the flesh of the Father why should he even expect Nicodemus to accept this testimony? Especially in light of this verse stated by Christ later on in the book of John.

John 8:17-18
17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
NIV

So, how can it simply be (the Spirit) and the (the flesh) and still be two valid witnesses?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Oneness,

If you can't post today we will have to put it on hold for a bit. Monday my daughter goes in for surgery. We are supposed to be able to come home the next day, but with our previous experiences with hospital stays, I am prepared for a longer visit then that.

~Lorelei

 

[Chemnitz]

If you can't post today we will have to put it on hold for a bit. Monday my daughter goes in for surgery. We are supposed to be able to come home the next day, but with our previous experiences with hospital stays, I am prepared for a longer visit then that.

I pray all goes well with your daughter's surgery. Depending on the surgery it wouldn't suprise me if she has a very speedy recovery. I had a fiberoptic exploritory/appendectomy and was out two days later and month later I was on rollercoasters.

Mee you have to keep it in context, Jn 1 very plainly states that the Son is not the Father in a flesh suit. Since you only have a flesh suit hanging on the cross there is no sacrafice and you are worshiping a false god.

 

[Lorelei]

Chemnitz,

I appreciate the thoughts and prayers. I too expect a speedy recovery. It just seems that there is always some little thing that extends our stay. I trust that the Lord has it all in his hands!

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Since you only have a flesh suit hanging on the cross there is no sacrafice and you are worshiping a false god.

Amen! I just love the little flesh suit phrase, but hey why call an apple an orange? If they believe what they say, then to them Jesus was only a flesh suit. Thankfully the Jesus I know was man as well as God. He was the Son of the Father, not merely his flesh.

Keep up the good work!

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Do you want me to reply to anything?

You interpret that the "Father" talking to the Son. It does not say the Father, and it does not say the son. It say GOD said. Now If God is a Trinity than the trinity was speaking to some fourth person.

And I am still waiting on you to tell me who that fouth person was.

I have been waiting for you to respond to these verses for quite some time now.

Let's start with this one. If Jesus IS the Father, then how can there be two witnesses to Christ? The law says there must be two witnesses (not one witness with two attributes) and Christ said that he was one witness and his Father was the other.

So, is there or is there not a valid witness to Christ? If not, then Christ didn't fulfill the law. If so, you must admit that Christ is not the Father.

We can get to the rest of the verses later. As Chemnitz said, the other question has been answered more then once. I would like to point out that you still have not offered one yourself. (Speculation does not count, for it isn't an answer, it is a guess)

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Just want you to know, that I see it and I am not going to ignore it. I am haveing a really hetic day here at work, so please bare with me.

God bless

BTW, I am not talking about the trintiy, LOL, Im talking about the question.</font>[/QUOTE]Hey Lorelie, SOrry to hear about your daughter. I will do my best to remember you guys in my prayers.

Ok You want to know the two witnesses? Easy

The Father is one and The Son is other.

But does this mean they are seperate persons? No. The Eternal Spirit of God and the Flesh of God are two witnesses. The term "Son" referrs to humanity. So you have the "Man" and you have the "Spirit". Two witnesses.

Also why did Jesus not say that the Holy Spirit was a witness as well? The law did call for two, but it also called for three. (deut 17:6, 19:15)

So it is very easy to see if Jesus really wanted man to know that he existed as another Person he would have shown them that there were three that bare witness to the fact of seperate persons.

God bless.

 

[Lorelei]

So if I go into a court of law and testify against you, is my testimony considered as two testimonies against you or one?

Can I tell the judge my Spirit is testifying against this man and so is my flesh?

Nice try, but it doesn't work.

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
So if I go into a court of law and testify against you, is my testimony considered as two testimonies against you or one?

Can I tell the judge my Spirit is testifying against this man and so is my flesh?

Nice try, but it doesn't work.

~Lorelei

Lorelei, maybe not with us. But God was On Earh and In heaven at the Same time.

So God as a Man could testify and God as the Eternal Spirit could testify.

Our Body and Spirit cannot be in more than one place at one time.

So its quite simple to figure out.

God bless.

BTW. When Do I get some of my questions answered?

But for right now, you still have not told me who the trinity was speaking to. Who was it? Or are you just frustrated b/c your theory is not backed up by the bible?

And please tell me why you follow a doctrine that was established by the Catholic Church?

Please feel free to show me at any time where someone was baptized with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Please feel free to tell my why the bible says to do everything in word or in Deed in the Name of Jesus Christ (Col 3:17) and you still want to baptize with the titles father, son and holy ghost.

Is God and the Father two seperate Persons?

How many thrones will there be in heaven?

How many people will we see when we get to heaven?

Where in the bible does it use the Word Person to decribe The Eternal Spirit of God?

God bless

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelei, maybe not with us. But God was On Earh and In heaven at the Same time.

So God as a Man could testify and God as the Eternal Spirit could testify.

Our Body and Spirit cannot be in more than one place at one time.

So its quite simple to figure out.

God bless.

Oneness,

Can you add?

Does one being in two different places actually equal two separate beings?

Is the "God as man" different then the "God as the Eternal Spirit"? Are you now suggesting they are two Gods?

There were at least TWO witnesses needed. One being, in no matter how many places is still ONE being and therefore can only be counted as ONE witness.

Do you have any scripture to back up this statement? Where does the Bible suggest such a thing?

Jesus clearly stated that there were two witnesses. Though Jesus never clearly stated that he WAS the Father, you want me to believe that to be true. Then in defense of that belief, you separate Jesus the man from the God the Eternal Spirit. Which is it? Are they the same or different? You CAN'T have it both ways.

As for other answers, I will humor you in a moment. Just let me remind you, that I have awaited this answer for several months! This answer that you claim is so easy is the first actual attempt you have ever made to address this question. And in doing so, you make a mockery of the law that Christ came to fulfill.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
But for right now, you still have not told me who the trinity was speaking to. Who was it? Or are you just frustrated b/c your theory is not backed up by the bible?

I had to go all the way back to Page 2 of this thread to find where I first answered this question. The only frustration comes from the fact that I know that your attempt to keep addressing this question at me is merely an attempt to try to hide the fact that you have no idea what Gen 1:26 means. Since that verse scares you so much, you try to turn it around so the focus is no longer on you and your doctrine's inability to be in total unity with the Word of God.

Originally posted by Lorelei:
When you read the text and see how God revealed himself beginning with even Genesis, you don't have to say "it could be", you don't have to speculate scripture away.

We see how the writers that were inspired by God often used the word God to represent the Father when speaking within the trinity.

Example: Eph 6:23 "Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

It reads beautifully and in unison with the rest of scripture to realize that God the Father was speaking within the trinity, not outside of it.

This is the only way one can reconcile Gen 1:26 with Gen 1:27. Both are true statements without any "It could be's."

Now in order for you to rebut this statement you have to address the post of mine you have completely ignored.

Originally posted by Lorelei:
To comment on such phrases as: God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

When using and to separate such statements one must ask themself, is it separating different names or characteristics?

It can be used properly if separating characteristics.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Let me introduce you to John, my friend and collegue.

However, we don't separate His name with a characteristic.

My friend John and the police man

This would be properly stated

My friend John, the police man

It just doesn't make sense to use the word and in front of the. I believe you will be hard pressed to find anyone who truly speaks this way.

You also don't use it to separate a name from the same name.

John Doe is not introduces as:

My friend John and Doe.

So, let us look at this phrase again:

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Which words are titles and which are descriptive?

You stated:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
This is not a seperation of two people in the God head. It seperate attributes giveing to one God.

In other words he is saying that God is both the Father and the lord Jesus

However throughout our conversations you keep telling us that God's name is now Jesus. So which is the name and which is the attribute?

Let us look at the phrase again:

I would like to introduce you to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have two names: God and Jesus Christ
You have two descriptions: Father and Lord.

Your analogy simply doesn't work unless you declare either God or Jesus Christ as nothing other then a description.

You have already determined God to be the main title in this statement:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
In other words he is saying that God is both the Father and the lord Jesus

So, what is the name of God? Is it God, or is it Jesus? If it is Jesus, why did you determine Jesus to be merely a "seperate attributes giveing to one God"?

Now let us look at one quote directly from Paul:

Galatians 1:1Paul, an apostle sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Here we have Jesus Christ listed first and then God the Father. Within this sentence it would be impossible to proclaim that one of the two is merely an attribute of the other. For one has died, and the other has raised him from the dead. Attributes can not take such actions now can they?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]I answered yours AGAIN. I even gave a demonstration how the word God was often used in this way when speaking within the trinity.

In order for you to say that isn't true, you had to demote Jesus from God's name to merely and attribute.

And still, you have no answer of your own.

So do tell, what does Genesis 1:26 mean?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
And please tell me why you follow a doctrine that was established by the Catholic Church?

I study no man's doctrine. I seek the Word of God and it alone for everything that I believe. I would ask you why you so blindly follow your churches doctrine when there are scriptures that blatantly profess otherwise?

Whenever we point out scriptures that are contrary to your beliefs you run and cry and say "I don't know." Yet you believe your doctrine anyway.

I do the opposite. I believe the Bible first.

When have I ever tried to show you this doctrine is true using anything other then the Word of God? Think about it. Trying to argue from this standpoint is just another ploy to take the focus off of the Word of God.

Let us stick to the Bible, shall we?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Please feel free to show me at any time where someone was baptized with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Why do you keep asking the same questions? How many pages did that thread with this topic go?

In the end we proved that you could not demonstrate anyone actually being baptized in your method either.

"In the name of" means by whose authority one is baptizing in. No where does it ever state what anyone said when someone was baptized. There is no "sample" baptism, just statements that people were baptized.

So again, I am accused of not answering, when in fact I have addressed this several times.

However, let us focus on the actual name aspect. Is Jesus actually the name of the Father and the Spirit? That is the focus.

So where does the Bible say that Jesus is the Father? Where does the Bible say that the Father is a "manifestation" of God?

Before you begin to say that Jesus is one with the Father means the same thing, let me remind you that Jesus also prayed that we would be one with Him too. Surely you don't suggest that we will Be God???

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Please feel free to tell my why the bible says to do everything in word or in Deed in the Name of Jesus Christ (Col 3:17) and you still want to baptize with the titles father, son and holy ghost.

Matt 28:18-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
NIV

I have answered this before as well, several times. If you believe this IS Jesus then what is the problem?

~Lorelei

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Lorelei:

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Since you only have a flesh suit hanging on the cross there is no sacrafice and you are worshiping a false god.

Amen! I just love the little flesh suit phrase, but hey why call an apple an orange? If they believe what they say, then to them Jesus was only a flesh suit. Thankfully the Jesus I know was man as well as God. He was the Son of the Father, not merely his flesh.

Keep up the good work!

Chemnitz, how do you get it that we worship a false god? I was talking about the Lord Jesus Christ!

As far as the "flesh suit" phrase, keep pondering and maybe, just maybe, it will sink in. Know what I mean? You both are getting closer!

As far as the Jesus that you know being man and God, think about what you are saying! BTW was He the son of the Father (God or Spirit) or the son of the Holy Ghost (God or Spirit)?

Matthew 1:20) ........fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her of of the Holy Ghost.

So if one thinks in terms of three persons in the Godhead, which is Jesus' father? Keep in mind that the trinity doctrine says that they all three are equal.

MEE

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Is God and the Father two seperate Persons?

No, the Father is one person of the one being that IS God.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
How many thrones will there be in heaven?

I haven't the time to look it up. I know revelation says this:

Rev 3:21
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
How many people will we see when we get to heaven?

Do you mean people as in humans? Or the persons of God?

I don't have any more insight into heaven then the Bible gives us. I know we are told that Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father. What we will see how will the One God that exists in three persons be visually looked upon? I have no clue nor do I claim to have access to such mysteries.

Originally posted by ONENESS:

Where in the bible does it use the Word Person to decribe The Eternal Spirit of God?

Where does it say the Father is the manifestion of the Eternal Spirit of God?

I have not told you that the word person is used in scripture. What I HAVE done is offer scriptures that prove there is a distinct separation.

Now, it's your turn. Answer the verses in question. And please, God gave us His word for a reason, and that reason wasn't to speculate his deity away with statements try to make 1 apple core + that same apple's peel = 2 oranges.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Hebrews 1:2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

13To which of the angels did God ever say,
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet

**************************

John 8:16-17
17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
8:18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me
NIV

*************************

Acts 2:32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '[7]
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

**************************

1 Corinthians 15:12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[3] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

************************

Romans 1:7: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 1:3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthains 1:2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

Galatians 1:1Paul, an apostle–sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–

************************

Rev 5:6-7
7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
NIV

************************

Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
NIV

*************************

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
NIV

************************

John 3:11
1 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
NIV

~Lorelei