Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

[Dualhunter]

You're still ignoring this:

"The LORD of hosts was sent by the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts is represented twice, once as sender and a second time as the one who is sent. Two persons are described here, the sender and the sent. Who do you think they are?"

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You're still ignoring this:

"The LORD of hosts was sent by the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts is represented twice, once as sender and a second time as the one who is sent. Two persons are described here, the sender and the sent. Who do you think they are?"

Who do I think they are? God!

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You're still ignoring this:

"The LORD of hosts was sent by the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts is represented twice, once as sender and a second time as the one who is sent. Two persons are described here, the sender and the sent. Who do you think they are?"

Who do I think they are? God!</font>[/QUOTE]Brian, is that your "final answer?"

MEE

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You're still ignoring this:

"The LORD of hosts was sent by the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts is represented twice, once as sender and a second time as the one who is sent. Two persons are described here, the sender and the sent. Who do you think they are?"

Who do I think they are? God!</font>[/QUOTE]They are God. Plural is singular. Doesn't really work with Oneness theology. LORD of hosts #1 sent LORD of hosts #2.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You're still ignoring this:

"The LORD of hosts was sent by the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts is represented twice, once as sender and a second time as the one who is sent. Two persons are described here, the sender and the sent. Who do you think they are?"

Who do I think they are? God!</font>[/QUOTE]They are God. Plural is singular. Doesn't really work with Oneness theology. LORD of hosts #1 sent LORD of hosts #2.</font>[/QUOTE]Does this require a preexistance of a seperate person?

But please alow me to study this, I put God down as a quick answer and I will give you a further statement later.

Mee....That was not my final answer. LOL

[ November 04, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[ONENESS]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Dualhunter:

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You're still ignoring this:

"The LORD of hosts was sent by the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts is represented twice, once as sender and a second time as the one who is sent. Two persons are described here, the sender and the sent. Who do you think they are?"

Who do I think they are? God!</font>[/QUOTE]They are God. Plural is singular. Doesn't really work with Oneness theology. LORD of hosts #1 sent LORD of hosts #2.[/QUOTE]

Who do you think they are

Ok, while I am still studing this so I can provide you an accurate answer, let me ask you in the mean time.

Who are they? They is Plural. If God is a "They" you have two seperate Gods.

You said

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You're still ignoring this:

"The LORD of hosts was sent by the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts is represented twice, once as sender and a second time as the one who is sent. Two persons are described here, the sender and the sent. Who do you think they are?"

Are you saying that there are two Lords?

Dont worry, Im not trying to get around the question.

 

[Dualhunter]

It's your turn to answer my questions rather than constantly ask others.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
It's your turn to answer my questions rather than constantly ask others.

OK..I will give you a quick answer again...It was God Speaking in Prophesy....I was not another Lord...

The reason I asked my question is to show you that its no two seperate people.

So now that i have given you an answer... how many lords are there?

 

[Dualhunter]

Technically none, since the English LORD represents YHVH. Your answer does not deal with the passage, you just write it off as "It was God Speaking in Prophesy" yet you have not shown how this is so. What the passage states is that the LORD of hosts is saying that He has been sent by the LORD of hosts. A person was sent by a person.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Technically none, since the English LORD represents YHVH. Your answer does not deal with the passage, you just write it off as "It was God Speaking in Prophesy" yet you have not shown how this is so. What the passage states is that the LORD of hosts is saying that He has been sent by the LORD of hosts. A person was sent by a person.

Dualhunter...If you want me to refute your whole argument using the bible I would be happy to. Not only can I show you that your termonology is wrong, but I can show you that its not in the bible either.

Your answer does not deal with the passage, you just write it off as "It was God Speaking in Prophesy" yet you have not shown how this is so.

In the passage you have two angels. Do you believe that these angels are the Father and Son. Let me hear what you think these verses mean. I need to understand where you are comeing from.

A person was sent by a person

So what you really mean is a seperate enity was sent by another seperate enity? Or another God sent another God? Or a seperate Spirit sent another seperate Spirit?

God is not a "Person". God is a Spirit John 4:24

Godbless

And one more time. How many Lords do we have. Is it One or is it Two or is it three?

 

[Dualhunter]

The passage does not mention angels, but rather the LORD of hosts. I said persons because I meant persons and not something else. A person is not a physical body. When refering to the Trinity, the word person refers to a distinct personality not a body, spirit or god. 1 God eternally existing in 3 persons.

[ November 08, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Dualhunter ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
The passage does not mention angels, but rather the LORD of hosts. I said persons because I meant persons and not something else. A person is not a physical body. When refering to the Trinity, the word person refers to a distinct personality not a body, spirit of god. 1 God eternally existing in 3 persons.

What do you mean it does not mention angels?

1 ¶ I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.
2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.
3 And, behold, the ANGEL that talked with me went forth, AND ANOTHER ANGEL went out to meet him,
4 (the other angel)And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
5 (the other angel is now going to repeat what God said) For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
6 ¶ Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
8 (angel is still delievering the message)For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
10 ¶ Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

The angles were delivering a messeage from God.

When refering to the Trinity, the word person refers to a distinct personality not a body, spirit of god.

So now God has three personalities?

Hebrews 1:3 lets us know that Jesus is the Express image of his Person. How can Jesus have a seperate Personality than the Father if its the exact same one?

The Son of God is YHVA in the Flesh. Not another Person.

When refering to the Trinity, the word person refers to a distinct personality not a body, spirit of god.

I dont understand the last part of your statment.
"...not a body, Spirit of God". What did you mean by "Spirit of God"?

God Bless

[ November 08, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Dualhunter]

"spirit of god" was a typo, it should have read "spirit or god"

3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact (10) representation of His nature, and (11) upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made (12) purification of sins, He (13) sat down at the right hand of the (14) Majesty on high, - Hebrews 1:3 NASB

The Son is God and therefore the exact representation of the nature of God (i.e. eternal self-existance, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) which Father, Son and Spirit all share. The Son is not the Father however. He is united with the Father as God, but He is not the Father.

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

There is no angel in these 2 verses (yes, I know 2 verses is a short passage). Instead the LORD of hosts has sent the LORD of hosts after glory. We have 2 persons here, the sent and the sender, who is the sent and who is the sender?

 

[ONENESS]

There is no angel in these 2 verses (yes, I know 2 verses is a short passage). Instead the LORD of hosts has sent the LORD of hosts after glory. We have 2 persons here, the sent and the sender, who is the sent and who is the sender

The word of the lord is going forth through the mouth of the Angel. The Angel is speaking of what God has sent him to say.

1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.

Zach lifted up his eyes and saw a man with a measuring line.

2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.

Zach asked him where he is going. And the man with the stick said “Im going to measure Jerusalem. (This man that was going to measure Jerusalem was an Angel.)

3 And, behold, the ANGEL that talked with me went forth, AND ANOTHER ANGEL went out to meet him,

The Angel with the stick met with another angel.

4 (the other angel)And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:

The other Angel said to the Angel with the Stick to run and speak to this young man (Zach) “Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:”
Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:

5 (the other angel is now going to repeat what God said) For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

The other Angel is talking to the Angel with the measuring stick and telling him to tell Zach that the Lord said Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:

6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach.

7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach.

8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach.

9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach.

10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach.

11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach.

12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach..

13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

The Angel that appeared to the Angel with the Measuring stick is still letting him know what the Lord said so he can tell Zach.

This is no idication that there are two seperate persons.

Let me give you an example. Its fairy easy to comprehend. Some times when I pray I talk to God in a sence that if you heard me praying you would wonder if I am talking to another God.

I say "...Father we thank you... and pray...and we give you thanks....

Then I get to the center of what I am wanting. In this instance I am wanting to know more about the Word of the Lord. So I say.

God Thank you so much for your word. I pray that you would give me a greater understanding from the word of the lord...

Now...Gods word is no more a seperate person than my words are a seperate person from myself. My Word is not another person and the same goes with God. So when I pray "God give me a greater understanding from the Word of the Lord". Who do you think I am praying to? Do you think its another person other than God, or is God himself?

The bible lets us know that God is alone. Read Isa 43:10-11, Isa 45:21-23, and many more.

The bible also lets us know in Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

God reasons with himself. We find another example of this in Gen 1:26.

And by the way...How many Lords are in heaven, One Two or three?

Godbless

 

[ONENESS]

A person is not a physical body. When refering to the Trinity, the word person refers to a distinct personality not a body, spirit or god. 1 God eternally existing in 3 persons.

So what you mean is that there are not three seperate Persons, like you and I are persons but you mean like there are three seperate personalities in heaven?

So in other words you dont believe that there are three seperate enities in heaven?

Can you let me know "Who will we see when we get to heaven? Will it be ther Father and the Son and not the Spirit or will we see them all three haveing conversation with each other. What do you beleive Jesus will say when you ask him "Show us the Father"?

God Bless

 

[Dualhunter]

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

Your angel quotes are irrelevant because in the above verses there are no angels, just YHVH of hosts who is sent, and YHVH of hosts who has sent.

18 (31) No one has seen God at any time; (32) the only begotten God who is (33) in the bosom of the Father, (34) He has explained Him. - John 1:18 NASB

It is God the Son who reveals the Father, it is through Him that we can know the Father.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct in that each is neither of the others, but all 3 are united as God. As one ancient writer said, they are 1 in substance (i.e. God) but 3 in subsistence (persons being the best word man could come up with to describe it). Human language is not sufficient to accurately describe the Triune nature of God so we simply try our best with the words that we can come up with. 1 God, 3 persons, that's what the Bible teaches, if you can't understand how it works, that's alright, just ask yourself this question:

7
"(7) Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? - Job 11:7 NASB

 

[Don]

Pardon me for barging in....

Oneness, you are correct: An angel is speaking in this passage.

But the emphasis is not on who is speaking; the emphasis is the message the angel is delivering. And the angel is saying that God said, "I will wave my hand over them...and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me." The angel is quoting God's words, doing what angels do: deliver messages.

I'm outta here.

[ November 08, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[try hard]

ONE OF THE HOLY TRINITY
Called ANGEL OF GOD
Exodus 14:19; Judges 13:6; 1 Samuel 29:9; 2 Samuel 14:17,20; 19:27; Acts 27:23; Galatians 4:14
Called ANGEL OF THE LORD
Genesis 16:7,9; 22:11; Exodus 3:2; Numbers 22:23,25,27,32,35; Judges 2:1; 6:11,12,21,22; 13:3,6,9,13-21; 2 Samuel 24:16; 1 Kings 19:7; 2 Kings 1:3,15; 19:35; 1 Chronicles 21:15,18; Psalms 34:7; 35:5,6; Zechariah 1:11,12; 3:5; 12:8
Called ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE
Isaiah 63:9

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
Pardon me for barging in....

Oneness, you are correct: An angel is speaking in this passage.

But the emphasis is not on who is speaking; the emphasis is the message the angel is delivering. And the angel is saying that God said, "I will wave my hand over them...and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me." The angel is quoting God's words, doing what angels do: deliver messages.

I'm outta here.

Thank you Don thats correct.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

Your angel quotes are irrelevant because in the above verses there are no angels, just YHVH of hosts who is sent, and YHVH of hosts who has sent.

18 (31) No one has seen God at any time; (32) the only begotten God who is (33) in the bosom of the Father, (34) He has explained Him. - John 1:18 NASB

It is God the Son who reveals the Father, it is through Him that we can know the Father.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct in that each is neither of the others, but all 3 are united as God. As one ancient writer said, they are 1 in substance (i.e. God) but 3 in subsistence (persons being the best word man could come up with to describe it). Human language is not sufficient to accurately describe the Triune nature of God so we simply try our best with the words that we can come up with. 1 God, 3 persons, that's what the Bible teaches, if you can't understand how it works, that's alright, just ask yourself this question:

7
"(7) Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? - Job 11:7 NASB

Dualhunter, I can not understand the depths of God. But I can understand the Godhead (Romans 1:20)

And no I cannot discover the limits of the almighty. I'm not that smart.

But on the contrary I am smart enough to understand that when you start saying thier are three Persons in the God head you also mean that there are three lords. You also mean that there are three diffrent enitys talking and hanging out with each other.

The bible is very clear that God is one. (Deut 6:4).

Isa 45:18-23 says

18"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earh: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble Yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye and bring them near, yea let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it from that time? Have not I the Lord? "and there is no God else beside me, a just God and a Saviour, there is noe beside me. 22 Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is Gone out in my mouth in rightousness and shall not return that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

18"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none else.

God is speaking through Isaiah. The Lord (YHVA) said that God (Elohiym) formed the earth. Is YHVA another person other than Elohiym?

I found this quote from a Trinitarian on antother board.

"By the way, while "Elohim" is plural as a stand-alone word, it's linked to singular verbs in the text. Various passages make it clear that Elohim & YHWH are the same Entity, not a polytheistic group of entities"

Is one person of the God head speaking about the Godhead? No It is one God speaking about himself.

21 Tell ye and bring them near, yea let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it from that time? Have not I the Lord? "and there is no God else beside me, a just God and a Saviour, there is none beside me.

How many saviours do we have? Is it not one? According to your doctrine we have three seperate saviours, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Also see Isa 43:11. "I, Even I, am the Lord and beside me there is no saviour. If there are three persons Called YHVA than Isa was wrong. The passage should read just like Gen 1:26. I even I am the lord and beside us there is no saviour.

Again we only have one saviour not three. We only have one Lord, not three. We only have one God, not three. There is only one Person of God and that Is God himself.

Dualhunter you said

There is no angel in these 2 verses (yes, I know 2 verses is a short passage). Instead the LORD of hosts has sent the LORD of hosts after glory. We have 2 persons here, the sent and the sender, who is the sent and who is the sender

One Lord sent another Lord. You are saying that there are two Lords. This is in complete contridiction with what the bible teaches in Eph 4. The Bible lets us know that there is ONE not two or three.

Dualhunter I can proove all day to you that there is only One Lord. You can argue the fact that there are two or three, but when it comes down to it there is only One. The bible says so, not myself. I just happen to agree with what the bible says.

I dont mean to be so plain but thats the way these discussions have to be.

Godbless

Brian