Onetime TGC Calvinist Fraternity Insider Is 'Not a Christian'

[Dave G]

These all support free will and free will being demonstrated yet you'll shake it all off and deny what I believe is true.
These are verses that you have to get around to avoid free will;
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. <----- Since there is none that seek God ( Romans 3:10-12 ), then who cares about laboring and being heavy laden? Also, what is it to labor, and be heavy laden? Labor for what? Be heavy laden with what?
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. <--- Rest from what?
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. <----- What is Christ bearing, that we should take His yoke upon us?

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. <---- But she didn't know, did she? It had to be revealed to her who He was ( Matthew 16:15-17 ) Read the passage a little further, MB.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? <---- O house of Israel. That is who God is pleading with, according to the covenant that He made with them. Not all men.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? <--- Same as above.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. <--- Spoken to those that had already believed. Please see James 1:1-2.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. <---- Same as above.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. <--- Same as Ezekiel 18:31. The prophet is speaking to the house of Israel.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like
crimson, they shall be as wool. <----- Isaiah is speaking to the house of Israel, not to all men.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: <---- Under the Law of Moses, God promised blessings and cursings to a specific nation of people. He pleaded with them time and again to remember their agreement that they made with Him at Mt. Sinai. All of this is spoken to one nation, and only one nation.
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.<------- There it is. God telling the nation that if they refuse and rebel, they shall experience exactly what He told them would happen in Exodus, Deuteronomy and other places.

My comments in green within the body of your quoted text.

 

[Dave G]

I realize this is all for naught. It's useless to try to convince you of anything because your heart is so blasted hard.

My heart has been changed by God.
I have no wish to sin any further in this life, but I take great comfort in knowing that He has forgiven me according to His mercy and grace.
My heart is not hard, MB.

Not towards God and His Son.

You can't stand it that you cannot convince me of Calvinism.

I'm doing fine, sir.
Convincing you of the truth of Scripture isn't my job...it's the Lord's.
If anything, I'm learning patience through all of this.

To be saved we must all ask the Lord to save us .

Someone has sold you a bill of goods that sounds too good to be true.
Asking God to save us, doesn't save us.
Realizing that we need saving...now that is evidence that one is saved.

If He does save it is still the Lord Jesus Christ saving us not our selves.

Exactly.

I've studied Calvinism for years now and haven't found even one thing in it supported by scripture The tulip comes from men with distorted views of scripture/

At this point, I'd say ignore "Calvinism", and simply concentrate on studying the Scriptures for yourself.
We'll see what happens after a while.

There is nothing you have ever said that has convinced me of your Calvinism.

Good.
Again, I'm not here to convince you of the truth of it.
That's the Lord's job...to make His children "see" His words.

I feel sorry for you because you are deceived and you don't seem to care.

If you knew anything about deception, that is the way it works.
If I'm deceived, then Satan is behind it... and I couldn't break his power short of a miracle of God, anyway.

You quoting me so many times must mean you're upset that I will not believe in Calvinism.

Nope.

I'm simply answering your objections, piece by piece.
You seem pretty angry yourself, MB...not that I'm trying to exploit a soft spot, but it seems that you have a particular hatred of the idea that God can save who He wants, and cast into Hell, who He wants.

I belong to Christ the real Christ of the Bible I will never turn my back on my Lord.

I'm glad to hear that, MB.
Before you know it, He will be leading you into all truth.

Because that is what he does for those who are His.

 

[MB]

My comments in green within the body of your quoted text.

A desperate attempt to prove what is not provable. LOL
MB

 

[MB]

My heart has been changed by God.
I have no wish to sin any further in this life, but I take great comfort in knowing that He has forgiven me according to His mercy and grace.
My heart is not hard, MB.

Not towards God and His Son.

I'm doing fine, sir.
Convincing you of the truth of Scripture isn't my job...it's the Lord's.
If anything, I'm learning patience through all of this.

Someone has sold you a bill of goods that sounds too good to be true.
Asking God to save us, doesn't save us.
Realizing that we need saving...now that is evidence that one is saved.

Exactly.

At this point, I'd say ignore "Calvinism", and simply concentrate on studying the Scriptures for yourself.
We'll see what happens after a while.

Good.
Again, I'm not here to convince you of the truth of it.
That's the Lord's job...to make His children "see" His words.

If you knew anything about deception, that is the way it works.
If I'm deceived, then Satan is behind it... and I couldn't break his power short of a miracle of God, anyway.

Nope.

I'm simply answering your objections, piece by piece.
You seem pretty angry yourself, MB...not that I'm trying to exploit a soft spot, but it seems that you have a particular hatred of the idea that God can save who He wants, and cast into Hell, who He wants.

I'm glad to hear that, MB.
Before you know it, He will be leading you into all truth.

Because that is what he does for those who are His.

Maybe you don't see your self as you really are. What I see is a bitter old man who has failed to convert me to a false religion no better than Mormonism or JW"S. You do exactly the same things to support your false doctrines.You cannot convince me of anything.
MB

 

[Dave G]

If you pay attention to the story of creation you could learn the nature of man (Adam) in general, the sense in which the heart was closed after having been created in the likeness and image of God, having received sense, reason and intellect (human volition) became prideful and wished to be as God (Geneses 3:22). This sin would be a natural response to the gift of creation in this magnitude.

I have, Benjamin.
The Lord also told Paul to write even more of what happened in Genesis ...Romans 1:18-32.

As you can see happened with Lydia, - Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

To me, it's obvious that you've described exactly what happened according to Ephesians 1:13.
But you never really did answer my questions from God's word, as I see it.

Why did God open Lydia's heart?
Why was it closed?
Why could Lydia not open it, so that she attended to the things Paul spoke of, on her own?

Scripture answers it, but I don't think that you believe the answers.
In summary, it's called "Total Depravity", and it states that man cannot, in and of himself, come to Christ without God causing it.

It's built on God's word alone, and it has no foundation in man's warped philosophy.

 

[Dave G]

Ah, more of those pesky “you” (she). But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

Nah, I suspect you don't. The truth in reasoning would cramp you style of "teaching"...

Personally, I love it when you put more Scriptural support into your responses, Benjamin.
But I also happen to believe that you misunderstand quite a bit of it.

For now, all I see in the majority of your posts is a lot of logic and human reasoning, which seem to rule your views of God's word.
Appealing to it might work with those who are swayed by it, but not with those who want to see what God actually has to has to say about a subject.

In addition, it seems you've completely missed the fact that "Calvinists" ( those you call "Determinists" ) do not teach that man is a robot, and they do not teach that man is not responsible to believe that Christ is Lord.
Despite my best efforts, it seems that you continue to fall back on the misunderstanding that if God chooses a person to salvation, then that means He created a robot that is pre-programmed and unable to respond to His grace.
That false charge has been answered time and again, yet you don't seem to be willing to believe what has been answered about it, and what the Scriptures actually declare.

You appear to keep missing the details that man is fully responsible, and fully at enmity ( opposition ) to God and His Son....so much so, that we will not and cannot repent and believe apart from the new birth.


I encourage you to pull off the "free will, I-can-determine-my-own-destiny-by-obeying-God glasses", and look at God's word to see if He really does work everything according to the counsel of His own will ( Ephesians 1:11 ).
I hope that someday He will cause you to look at something He has said, and sit back in awe of His power... and especially of His kindness and grace towards you.


This is my last reply in this thread, and I'm sure you'll be happy to know that I am done.

Incidentally, convincing you of the truth was never my primary purpose, sir.
There are others who read these threads and do not comment.
It is to them that I make my appeals.


I'm only using your objections to answer any questions that may come up in their minds.

 

[atpollard]

So where is your proof for Calvinism. You act as if your so pious. Why not show your proof for Calvinism.
MB

Another scripture and exegesis heavy post, I see.

This is not a topic for proving Calvinism, this is a topic about a man claiming to be a Calvinist falling from faith.

What would be the point of presenting a defense of Particular Baptism, since those that already embrace it would simply agree and those, like yourself, that reject it would be unlikely to offer anything more than drive-by sniping like your post quoted above? Nothing would be gained but empty words and wasted time.

 

[Dave G]

This is not a topic for proving Calvinism, this is a topic about a man claiming to be a Calvinist falling from faith.

Well said and I agree, sir.
This thread has digressed, and I am partly to blame by answering posts that have carried it far beyond the scope of its original intent.

 

[MB]

Another scripture and exegesis heavy post, I see.

This is not a topic for proving Calvinism, this is a topic about a man claiming to be a Calvinist falling from faith.

What would be the point of presenting a defense of Particular Baptism, since those that already embrace it would simply agree and those, like yourself, that reject it would be unlikely to offer anything more than drive-by sniping like your post quoted above? Nothing would be gained but empty words and wasted time.

Even if it was you still aren't able to defend you theology.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Even if it was you still aren't able to defend you theology.
MB

False, but at least there is little doubt about what my theology is!

If you are serious, I will happily meet you for a formal discussion of any part of T.U.L.I.P. except (L) Limited Atonement.
(I do not reject Limited Atonement, but it is a matter that cannot be PROVEN or DISPROVEN from scripture. Only Jesus ultimately knows exactly who he intended to die for, just as only God knows who He "foreknew", and Jesus did not tell us explicitly who that was. So Limited/Unlimited Atonement always becomes an exercise in inference from scripture and pressing parables and allegories ... which is not really "proof".)

However, I will gladly discuss where and how Scripture affirms ...

We are (T)otally Incapable of choosing God on our own because sin causes us to always flee from God.
Who God "predestines" is not based on any merit within the individual saved, but is based on God's (U)nconditional Election (choice) and is not an "Election" that is "Conditioned" on some future merit foreseen by God.
Those whom God chooses, He (I)rresistibly draws to Christ by the grace of God which no man can resist.
Those in whom God begins a good work, who are sealed with His Holy Spirit, will (P)ersevere to the end, because God is able to finish what He starts.

If you believe (T), (U), (I) or (P) as presented above are incorrect and indefensible, then let us create a topic where we can discuss the specific point that you disagree with. However, let us leave "Calvin" out of it, since I have never read any of his works.

 

[MB]

False, but at least there is little doubt about what my theology is!

If you are serious, I will happily meet you for a formal discussion of any part of T.U.L.I.P. except (L) Limited Atonement.
(I do not reject Limited Atonement, but it is a matter that cannot be PROVEN or DISPROVEN from scripture. Only Jesus ultimately knows exactly who he intended to die for, just as only God knows who He "foreknew", and Jesus did not tell us explicitly who that was. So Limited/Unlimited Atonement always becomes an exercise in inference from scripture and pressing parables and allegories ... which is not really "proof".)

However, I will gladly discuss where and how Scripture affirms ...

We are (T)otally Incapable of choosing God on our own because sin causes us to always flee from God.
Who God "predestines" is not based on any merit within the individual saved, but is based on God's (U)nconditional Election (choice) and is not an "Election" that is "Conditioned" on some future merit foreseen by God.
Those whom God chooses, He (I)rresistibly draws to Christ by the grace of God which no man can resist.
Those in whom God begins a good work, who are sealed with His Holy Spirit, will (P)ersevere to the end, because God is able to finish what He starts.

If you believe (T), (U), (I) or (P) as presented above are incorrect and indefensible, then let us create a topic where we can discuss the specific point that you disagree with. However, let us leave "Calvin" out of it, since I have never read any of his works.

I believe you are wrong in your theology. And I can clearly show you that you are. Since you're the Calvinist Start your thread in defense of Calvinism Lets start with the first doctrine the "t"/
MB

 

[Jerome]

Former Gospel Coalition Councilmember Joshua Harris


What's with these 'rainbow cakes' anyway? —also being served at this Reformed Baptist church in the Far East, what up with that?

Grace Community Reformed Baptist Church Salemba

 

[ivdavid]

This is not a topic for proving Calvinism, this is a topic about a man claiming to be a Calvinist falling from faith.

I'd like to comment on general beliefs and not any specific person - I certainly have limited knowledge on Joshua Harris.

The calvinist approach to upholding Once Saved Always Saved has been to qualify it as If Saved Always Saved - where any sign of apostasy negates and nullifies any prior perceived works of God in their lives. This is easy to do as an intellectual exercise far removed from the person - but if you've grown up watching this person magnify Christ for a long time and have yourself testified of such evidences of grace in their life, how do you now make sense of all you'd perceived given their unexpected apostasy? If there is no true north, wouldn't you be hesitant in the future to praise God for any such perceived works - for who knows when they'll walk away from the faith, requiring you to take back all you'd declared as true. And how do you differentiate between the exact same evidences seen in the past life of an apostate as well as your own life?

And I think this unnecessary confusion is because of the calvinist error in wrongly assuming God does no supernatural works in the non-elect. It is absolutely true that the elect are saved by God from beginning to end, and none of them ever fall away being preserved by God. But why must the calvinists limit any such salvific works of God to be only over the elect, not allowing even its most basic forms over the non-elect? I'd propose an If Elect And Saved, Always Saved to be the solution - this gives room for the If Non-elect and Saved to fall away eventually.

 

[ivdavid]

this gives room for the If Non-elect and Saved to fall away eventually.

Because the calvinists have assumed that no salvific work in any form is done in the non-elect, they simply generalize the beginning to end nature of God's work in the elect and conflate the term 'saved' to be assured salvation which a person can never lose. Again note, the 'person' here is implicitly referring to only the elect. So when one comes up with a real life scenario where a person does fall away from their faith - this is either dismissed as temporary or as them never being saved in the first place.

If anyone looked into king Saul's life right at the time he was rejected by God, or into the Israelites right when they were killed in the wilderness, would it be right for them to assume God did no salvific work in their lives? They were saved - but this term "saved" needs to be qualified. A person is saved from slavery in the beginning and is saved unto the promised Kingdom at the end - and the beginning to end nature of saving is performed only in the elect.

But the non-elect could be saved from Egypt in the beginning and yet not saved unto the promised land because of their falling away in unbelief (Jude 1:5). Similarly king Saul could be saved from an old heart in the beginning (1Sam 10:9-10) and yet be rejected by God later because of his falling away. This is perfectly consistent within Scriptures. What is the harm in praising God for any and every evidence of grace seen in both the elect and non-elect? We will keep praising God over the elect for His unending faithfulness. And we can keep praising God for His loving compassion and grace over the non-elect while it is found and for His glorious justice and power seen in His wrath when they fall away.

And the assurance of salvation is still upheld through faith alone - if you believe in Christ now, you do have the assurance of salvation now. Why do you need divination to see right now if you'd continue having the assurance of salvation 5 years into the future? Wait until that 5 years into the future moment and ask yourself if you believe in Christ then - if yes, then you still have the assurance of salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Practicing sodomites are not saved persons,1 cor6:9-11.
Some rejoice in this shameful activity to their own shame.

 

[percho]

If one believes his faith was forced upon him and that he had no choice, then his love of the truth was not his own if it ever even existed, therefore “his faith” was based in the unrighteousness of holding the truth in unrighteousness. As it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:16-20) and, “all of His ways are judgment,” (Deuteronomy 32:4) but this Calvinist guy’s claim would logically be that the foundation of his faith began with inability and determination upon him rather than divine influence resulting in the persuasion of his own heart (cause and effect rather than influence and response), to which (Deu 32:4) God will judge the content of his heart in “Truth”.

(Rom 10:9) If *you* declare with *your* mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in *your heart* that God raised him from the dead, *you* will be saved.

Note: *You* is used 4 times in this verse. *You'll* be surprised by how much *”you"* there is in a book that supposedly says that *we* do nothing.

wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

Is the, saved, of Romans 10:9 the salvation spoken of in 1 Peter 1:3-12

Does he, to whom God gives the Spirit of Christ, declare Jesus is Lord.unto salvation. Will, "you," be saved?

And Ananias went away, and did enter into the house, and having put upon him his hands, said, 'Saul, brother, the Lord hath sent me -- Jesus who did appear to thee in the way in which thou wast coming -- that thou mayest see again, and mayest be filled with the Holy Spirit.' And immediately there fell from his eyes as it were scales, he saw again also presently, and having risen, was baptized, and having received nourishment, was strengthened, and Saul was with the disciples in Damascus certain days, and immediately in the synagogues he was preaching the Christ, that he is the Son of God. Acts 9:17-20

Did Paul of himself become a believer or did Jesus move Paul from unbelief unto belief for the Purpose of God?

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12,12

 

[JonC]

Six hour warning. This thread will be closed sometime after 10:40 pm EST

 

[JonC]

Thread is closed.