Onetime TGC Calvinist Fraternity Insider Is 'Not a Christian'

[Dave G]

Which verse in Romans 9 says that?

I think he might be getting that here:

" The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it]." ( Jeremiah 18:1-4 ).

The only problem is, God does not remake men in this passage, but nations:

" Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter’s hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];
8 if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];
10 if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." ( Jeremiah 18:5-9 )

He sets them up and pulls them down ( Job 12:23, Daniel 2:21 ).

 

[Rockson]

There won’t be any excuses that one didn’t have a choice to accept Jesus Christ in a genuine love of the truth that He offers forgiveness to all men. That IS the Gospel message that we are instructed to give.

Amen to that!

 

[MB]

Which verse in Romans 9 says that?

Jeremiah 18
Romans is not the only book in the bible

We have to understand scripture as a whole not just a verse or chapter at a time.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Jeremiah 18
Romans is not the only book in the bible

We have to understand scripture as a whole not just a verse or chapter at a time.
MB

PEOPLE:
[Romans 9:19-26 NASB] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

NATIONS:
[Jeremiah 18:1-12 NASB] 1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will announce My words to you." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter [does?]" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy [it;] 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant [it;] 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' 12 "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'

Apples and Oranges.

 

[MB]

PEOPLE:
[Romans 9:19-26 NASB] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

NATIONS:
[Jeremiah 18:1-12 NASB] 1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will announce My words to you." 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter [does?]" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy [it;] 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant [it;] 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' 12 "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'

Apples and Oranges.

I believe both passages because they fit together. You interpret Romans and I let the scriptures interpret them selves This is the real difference
Romans 9 does not support Calvinism with out your personal interpretation.
MB

 

[InTheLight]

Gotta love how Calvinists apply Ezekiel 36 to everyone, when it's clearly written to the nation of Israel but fits their theology to do so, but separate out Jeremiah 18 because it's written to the nation of Israel and doesn't fit their theology.

 

[Dave G]

Gotta love how Calvinists apply Ezekiel 36 to everyone, when it's clearly written to the nation of Israel but fits their theology to do so, but separate out Jeremiah 18 because it's written to the nation of Israel and doesn't fit their theology.

I thought post # 62 explained it in-depth, but you are, of course, free to disagree.

I think I know how you feel, and believe it or not, you're not the first person that I've experienced this "system of opposites" from.
I also realize that to you, certain passages may mean one thing, and to me, they may mean something else.
For example, what is your take on 2 Peter 3:9?
I have an idea that you and I will see it quite differently.

From my perspective, this is part of why there are "denominations".

 

[MB]

I thought post # 62 explained it in-depth, but you are, of course, free to disagree.

I think I know how you feel, and believe it or not, you're not the first person that I've experienced this "system of opposites" from.
I also realize that to you, certain passages may mean one thing, and to me, they may mean something else.
For example, what is your take on 2 Peter 3:9?
I have an idea that you and I will see it quite differently.

From my perspective, this is part of why there are "denominations".

It's like this Dave. You tell God what He said instead of what God actually says. You interpret everything in the Bible to fit Calvinism. You never take Gods Word as it is. Stop interpreting it and just read it as it is with out your opinions.Your notions. What others have said. Just let God speak for Him Self
MB

 

[Dave G]

It's like this Dave. You tell God what He said instead of what God actually says.

With respect, I'd appreciate you showing me where you see me doing that.
Please provide specific instances through quoting either past posts, or examples of Scriptures that I have done this with.

I have nothing to hide, so please show me, and the readers of this thread, where you believe that I have misused His words.
As an example, would you post a Scripture that says one thing, and I say that it states something else, or perhaps the complete opposite?

Something God's word actually says that I flat-out reject?

You interpret everything in the Bible to fit Calvinism.

From my perspective, you seem to think that everything in the Bible fits "free will theology", and that man can perform an act to become saved.
In other words, you seem convinced that God's will is not what determines a person being born again ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ), but that man's will is the final determiner of who is saved and who is not.

Please provide Scripture ( other than Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 ), that clearly states that a person can do something and God will save them because of that action.
The reason I ask that this passage not be used, as to me, that one is far too easy to simply post and say, "there it is."


In addition, if you think that one verse should be enough, I urge you to build a case for your conclusions from more than one verse, if only to give it more support from His word.
One verse alone should never determine important points of doctrine...to me, that's how false teachers dupe the unsuspecting and those who don't study His words deeply.

Convince me with the Scriptures ( the more the better ), that man's will alone ultimately determines his destiny.

 

[Reformed1689]

If this is true then you'd have no argument.I have peace in my Salvation and I'd like you to have it too.
MB

I have peace and that has NOTHING to do with this topic.

 

[Benjamin]

Convince me with the Scriptures ( the more the better ), that man's will alone ultimately determines his destiny.

Strawman, "with respect" please show one post where MB has declared such a thing...

 

[Dave G]

Convince me with the Scriptures ( the more the better ), that man's will alone ultimately determines his destiny.

I'll put it another way, and re-iterate my position.
Convince me with Scripture that God's will alone does not determine salvation.

Show me Scriptures that I not only deny, but that you think I don't take at face value, MB.

 

[atpollard]

Strawman, "with respect" please show one post where MB has declared such a thing...

Technically, MB doesn’t declare anything specific except “you are wrong” ...

Jeremiah 18
Romans is not the only book in the bible

We have to understand scripture as a whole not just a verse or chapter at a time.
MB

I believe both passages because they fit together. You interpret Romans and I let the scriptures interpret them selves This is the real difference
Romans 9 does not support Calvinism with out your personal interpretation.
MB

It's like this Dave. You tell God what He said instead of what God actually says. You interpret everything in the Bible to fit Calvinism. You never take Gods Word as it is. Stop interpreting it and just read it as it is with out your opinions.Your notions. What others have said. Just let God speak for Him Self
MB

 

[Dave G]

Technically, MB doesn’t declare anything specific except “you are wrong” ...

Yeah,
I caught that.

I don't often see very many people who oppose "Calvinism" ( the TULIP ) actually get into the Scriptures and draw everything out line by line, or even go so far as to post a Scripture, and then openly tell others exactly what it means.
Some here have called it "exegesis", and I rarely see the "non-Calvinist" even try to do it.


I do see a lot of one-liners, though...

 

[Dave G]

Most of the time, all I see are objections made from ( what I assume to be ) anger, human reasoning and "logic", or simply a blatant dismissal of the words themselves... and I hardly ever see the actual scriptures that show God's choosing a sinner to salvation being dealt with in any other fashion but, "that doesn't mean what you think it means".

Is MB doing this?
I'm not sure, but what I do see is that "I'm wrong", but not "why".

What I don't see him, Benjamin or Rockson ( among others ) doing, is dealing with the Scriptures that I and others have listed in-depth, and telling me what they actually mean to them.

For example...
Instead of dealing with Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 6:64-65, John 10:26, John 17:2. Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and others, all they ( apparently ) can do is to simply counter using another thing that God has said, as if His word can actually contradict itself.


To me, election is no mystery, as God's word gives us the details as to why He saves one and not another.
The words on the page are where the answers come from.

 

[Revmitchell]

Outside of online forums, I've seen prominent "anti-Calvinist" writers do this as well on their own websites:

" The doctrine of “foreknowledge,” if not redefined by Calvinism, goes a long way, though not all of the way, toward explaining the mystery of how God could elect but man could choose. There is doubtless more to election than foreknowledge and we do not claim to be able to explain these things fully, but the fact remains that God’s Word teaches us that foreknowledge is involved and it cannot be redefined to mean “foreordination.” "- David Cloud.

Source: Calvinism's Proof Texts Examined <------ Read this one and tell me how many places the author simply rolls right over the words of God and keeps right on going in his objections...it made my jaw drop the first couple of times I went through the article.


In another place, this same author admits that he cannot understand election:

" There are aspects of election that we don’t currently understand and won’t understand in this life, because they are still hidden in God. I don’t claim to have all of the answers to this issue. But I do know that the Bible plainly says that God wants all men to hear the gospel and that whosoever believes will be saved. The Bible plainly teaches that it is God’s will for all men to be saved." - David Cloud.

Source: Calvinism's Proof Texts Examined <------See how he states that aspects of election are still "hidden in God"?

But the "Calvinist", who reads the Scriptures and deals with the words on the page without trying to re-define them, actually can reference places that have the answers to the very same "mystery" that Mr. Cloud thinks there are aspects of that are "still hidden in God".

One more for emphasis:

" Whatever divine election means, and it is certainly an important doctrine of the Word of God, it cannot mean what Calvinism concludes, because to accept that position requires one to strain at gnats and swallow camels. The gnats are Calvinist extra-scriptural arguments and reasoning and the camels are Scriptures understood plainly by their context." - David Cloud.

Source: Calvin's Camels

This quote above amazed me with it's audacity.
Just taking the first sentence and looking at it hard, made me realize that most of his arguments are not written or even stated from a genuine understanding of election, but from a dismissal of it in favor of what seems to oppose it in God's word.



The author here, despite admitting that divine election is an important doctrine of the word of God, cannot tell the reader what it does mean...all he can definitively state, is what it does not mean.

Dont copy and paste from one guy and try to act as if he represents everyone else.

 

[Dave G]

Dont copy and paste from one guy and try to act as if he represents everyone else.

To me, you sound quite a bit like him.
On several points, you and him are almost exactly alike, even in your arguments and objections.


Let's take faith, for example:
David Cloud, a prominent Independent Baptist, says this about faith:

" The faith for salvation comes by hearing God’s Word."
You and him agree, and I can point to at least one thread where you have stated this in almost the exact, same words.
Do you deny this?

Please reference post # 76 here: Where Does Faith Come From II


Here's a bit more from Cloud's website:
"Salvation is by the grace of God alone, which means that it is a free gift that is neither merited nor secured in whole or in part by any virtue or work of man or by any religious duty or sacrament. "

Now, I don't recall you ever making this exact statement, but I seem to remember seeing something like it on several occasions.

Mr. Cloud then turns right around and says the below... which negates the sentence above, because for the sinner to receive God's salvation by doing anything ( except to sit there and passively receive it ), is to merit it.

" The sinner receives God’s salvation by repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Source: Statement of Faith - Way of Life Literature

Again, you and him appear to agree... but in order for me to prove it, I would have to dig through quite a few threads.
Do you deny this?
If so, then I retract my statement.
If not, then my statement stands.



However, if you're going to take exception to what he says and make the statement that people shouldn't copy and paste from one guy and try to act as if he represents everyone else who holds to a particular doctrine or set of doctrines, then may I suggest not lumping everyone who agrees with TULIP in with the beliefs and teachings of John Calvin?

 

[Revmitchell]

Your arguments sound quite a bit like his.

On several points, you and him are almost exactly alike, even in your arguments and objections.
However, if you're going to take exception to what he says and make the statement that people shouldn't copy and paste from one guy and try to act as if he represents everyone else who holds to a particular doctrine, then may I suggest not lumping everyone who believes the TULIP in with John Calvin?

Yea this is a game you like to play, copy and paste one person and act as if they represent everyone you oppose. Its just cheap debate tactics with no substance.

 

[Dave G]

Yea this is a game you like to play, copy and paste one person and act as if they represent everyone you oppose.

No, I quote prominent "Traditionalists" and compare their beliefs and teachings to each other, and how they come to their conclusions about what Scripture teaches by their writings.

It's not a game Mark, as much as you may object to it and classify it as such.
I'm being serious.

Again...does John Calvin determine what I believe?
Equal treatment works both ways ( Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31 ).

Next time you call a Baptist a "Calvinist", you may wish to keep this in mind.

Its just cheap debate tactics with no substance.

I don't engage in cheap debate tactics, so I'd appreciate if you don't accuse me of doing so.
Remember, I'm created in the image of God as much as you are.

I'm not here to sling mud, I'm here to compare what I see in Scripture to what is coming off of people's keyboards...especially those who have assumed the role of teacher.
Since you claim to be a pastor, then your teachings are automatically elevated above those who don't, and your teachings are to be examined in the light of Scripture, by anyone who thinks it wise to do so.
If you cannot take comparisons and careful examinations, then perhaps you should re-think what you believe God has called you to do.

Take what comes with the territory...I do.
..and I'm not even a pastor.


Mr. Mitchell,
I'm not slandering or libeling you.
I'm weighing what you say and what I see you teaching against what other "Traditionalists" say and teach.

In the end, if you don't like what I'm writing, then may I suggest putting me on "ignore"?

 

[Revmitchell]

No, I quote prominent "Traditionalists" and compare their beliefs and teachings to each other, and how they come to their conclusions about what Scripture teaches by their writings.

It's not a game Mark, as much as you may object to it and classify it as such.
I'm being serious.

Again...does John Calvin determine what I believe?
If you're going to expect equal treatment, then don't call me a "Calvinist" ( Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31 ).

I don't engage in cheap debate tactics, so I'd appreciate if you don't accuse me of doing so.

Remember, I'm created in the image of God as much as you are.
I'm not here to sling mud, I'm here to compare what I see in scripture to what is coming off of people's keyboards.

Since you claim to be a pastor, then your teachings are automatically elevated above those who don't, and your teachings are to be examined in the light of Scripture, by anyone who thinks it wise to do so.
If you cannot take comparisons and careful examinations, then perhaps you should re-think what you believe God has called you to do.



Mr. Mitchell,
I'm not slandering or libeling you.
I'm weighing what you say and what I see you teaching against what other "Traditionalists" say and teach.

In the end, if you don't like what I'm writing, then may I suggest putting me on "ignore"?
That way you won't have to make comments that show how much you hate me.

Quite the drama queen. Just stop good grief.