Onetime TGC Calvinist Fraternity Insider Is 'Not a Christian'

[Reynolds]

The 'T' and the 'P' in TULIP was just violated by a well known, prominent Calvinist and it's pretty to point that out.

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Subscribing to the doctrine of Calvinism does not guarantee election. I am confused as to why this is such a big deal.

 

[Jerome]

1) I've seen people who were either raised in or came to "Calvinism" as young "believers", later reject it in favor of "Traditionalism" or "Wesleyan Arminianism"... or even reject Christ altogether.

2) I've also seen people who were raised in "Traditionalism" and "Wesleyan Arminianism" later reject those and become "Calvinists" strictly through their reading of Scripture or the preaching of the word.
I've never heard of any of those falling away...but I'm also not saying it doesn't happen.

he didn't stick it out, and fell away. To me, this is a clear-cut case of #1.

Wrong.

Not sure the value of some simplistic scheme of two classes of 'people you've seen' to this, but Harris's trajectory would fit more with your #2 (except for the 'I've never heard of any of those falling away' thing)

Harris was raised Holy Rollers, then was in a 'Willow Creek'-type environment, then became Calvinist through the teaching ministry of John Piper.

 

[Dave G]

Harris was raised Holy Rollers, then was in a 'Willow Creek'-type environment, then became Calvinist through the teaching ministry of John Piper.

Ok, but did he ever see it for himself just by reading Scripture?
From what you're describing, I'd say, "no".

 

[Jerome]

Sigh. You previously spoke of 'reading of scripture or the preaching of the word.'

Again, not sure why people have be jammed into these two classes of 'people you've seen', nor why you would declare Harris a clear-cut case when you apparently know so little about about him.

 

[Rockson]

There's something here I find sadly strange. This dear man (the subject of this OP) has lost his way. He was or claimed to be a Calvinist. He claimed at one time to be a Christian. And no offense but it seems the Non-Calvinists on here are in a better position to restore the dear soul than are the Calvinist.

Consider if he has an spark of interest to repent he actually now has to battle through all the doubts that he was in the elect to begin with. Indeed if he ever checked out what the Christian community are saying as in even visiting this web site he's got people of his former ilk (Calvinists) publicly making declarations that he couldn't have been saved to begin with....he couldn't have been the elect some of you have said. How does this not demonstrate the dangers of Calvinistic thinking?

You have a man now who doubly would feel God won't receive him back or that he ever did have him in the number of the redeemed. Well if there's one chance in a million that the poor soul could ever read this forget the Calvinist paradigm and KNOW God will receive you back. To those who fall away he'll restore. If you allow yourself to become such there's no reason for you to doubt the door to the Father's house would be locked to you if you did. His precious blood WILL cleanse you of all your sin!

 

[Rockson]

Ok, but did he ever see it for himself just by reading Scripture?
From what you're describing, I'd say, "no".

Good grief Dave the man was very well known within your Calvinist circles and wrote books. Are you suggesting he didn't actually read the scriptures supporting a cause he once held to? You're statement appears as a desperate attempt to say he wasn't really a Calvinist. He was a Calvinist and that's what he was period.

 

[Dave G]

Again, not sure why people have be jammed into these two classes of 'people you've seen', nor why you would declare Harris a clear-cut case when you apparently know so little about about him.

I don't need to know anything about him, other than does he profess Christ unwaveringly, or did he recant and walk away?

Sadly, it looks to be the latter.
This isn't something I take lightly, but when someone falls away, it reminds me of how very sobering the parables of the tares and the sower are.

 

[Dave G]

This dear man (the subject of this OP) has lost his way.

Thus far, I have to disagree.
To me, Joshua Harris hasn't "lost his way"...

Christ's sheep follow Him, unerringly.
They do not fall away and recant their faith under trials of faith.

Only false believers do that...people who were never born again.

He was or claimed to be a Calvinist.

I've heard of people from both "sides" falling away.
"Tares" can be of any stripe...which is why this is so sobering.

He claimed at one time to be a Christian. And no offense but it seems the Non-Calvinists on here are in a better position to restore the dear soul than are the Calvinist.

Restore him to what?
He's denied Christ ( from what I can tell ) and by all accounts, seems to have walked away... which means he fits the parable of the sower.
Restoring someone in the Bible is with regard to sin, not denying their Saviour ( see Galatians 6:1 ).

Consider if he has an spark of interest to repent he actually now has to battle through all the doubts that he was in the elect to begin with.

Christ's sheep may have doubts, Rockson, but they always keep returning to the Shepherd of their souls.
If Mr. Harris doesn't return on his own, then it's because Christ never knew him.

How does this not demonstrate the dangers of Calvinistic thinking?

There are no dangers with "Calvinistic thinking".

The only danger is in thinking that man has any influence on who God saves.

Consider if he has an spark of interest to repent he actually now has to battle through all the doubts that he was in the elect to begin with.

Hopefully, and for his sake, I hope he does.
That would mean he is my brother.

If he is Christ's, then he will weather this trial and return to his Saviour.
If not, then he never was.
It really is that "cut and dried".

This isn't a game, Rockson.

Do you somehow think that I am treating this situation callously, or uncaringly?
I don't and I'm not.
I know how salvation works, and it's all up to God.
If God saved Mr. Harris, then he will evidence that miraculous change of heart by waking up and repenting.

But there are trials and tribulations, and they are very real...they are also there to test God's children and those who profess to be God's children.

 

[Jerome]

I don't need to know anything about him, other than does he profess Christ unwaveringly, or did he recant and walk away?

Thank you for backpedaling this from your previous pronouncements focused on there being two sorts of Calvinists, and which sort Harris was:

1) I've seen people who were either raised in or came to "Calvinism" as young "believers", later reject it in favor of "Traditionalism" or "Wesleyan Arminianism"... or even reject Christ altogether.

2) I've also seen people who were raised in "Traditionalism" and "Wesleyan Arminianism" later reject those and become "Calvinists" strictly through their reading of Scripture or the preaching of the word. I've never heard of any of those falling away...but I'm also not saying it doesn't happen.

[Harris] is a clear-cut case of #1.

 

[Dave G]

Good grief Dave the man was very well known within your Calvinist circles and wrote books.

I never knew him.

I also ( nowadays ) pay very little attention to "popular Christianity", so didn't ( and don't ) care about "Calvinistic circles".
I don't get involved in either side with regard to reading and listening to them, Rockson.

I stand back and watch what both "sides" are doing, knowing that most of it is simply "religion at its finest".
I realize that seems harsh, but the reality of it is, many people who think they are saved, aren't.

It doesn't matter if they are in "Calvinist", "Wesleyan Arminian" or "Traditionalist" churches, there is no guarantee that a person is saved, just because they believe all the right doctrine.

Are you suggesting he didn't actually read the scriptures supporting a cause he once held to?

No, I'm suggesting the very real probability that he was never called by God.

That is the only thing that matters with regard to salvation...was he truly born again, or not?
To me, it doesn't look like he's staying in the faith.

There's only one conclusion when someone recants and goes back to the world...they were never born again.
They "got religion", and that's all they had.

When the going gets tough, false believers fall away and true ones seek their Saviour and hold on, no matter how bad the "storm" gets.

You're statement appears as a desperate attempt to say he wasn't really a Calvinist.

Not in the least.
I'm saying that he probably wasn't saved...period.

I hope I'm wrong.

He was a Calvinist and that's what he was period.

No, he claimed to be a Christian.
"Calvinism" aside, he now has done an "about-face", or at least he appears to have.

Christians don't do that.

 

[Dave G]

Thank you for backpedaling this from your previous pronouncement about which of the 'two kinds of Calvinists' Harris was:

I haven't changed my mind about that.

I happen to believe that the truth of salvation is what you call "Calvinism"...
I call it the "doctrines of grace" and I agree with "TULIP".
I also happen to believe that all of God's true children will eventually see the truth of election.

Lastly, they will never fall away from the faith, no matter how bad the trials get.
They will never go back to the world and its ways.


Christ is far too precious to them for that to happen.

 

[Jerome]

I haven't changed my mind about [which of the 'two kinds of Calvinists' Harris was]

OK then, here it is again: there are two sorts of Calvinists (according to Dave Gilbert), and Harris is the first sort (according to Dave Gilbert)...

1) I've seen people who were either raised in or came to "Calvinism" as young "believers", later reject it in favor of "Traditionalism" or "Wesleyan Arminianism"... or even reject Christ altogether.

2) I've also seen people who were raised in "Traditionalism" and "Wesleyan Arminianism" later reject those and become "Calvinists" strictly through their reading of Scripture or the preaching of the word. I've never heard of any of those falling away...but I'm also not saying it doesn't happen.

[Harris] is a clear-cut case of #1.

 

[Dave G]

Again, not sure why people have be jammed into these two classes of 'people you've seen', nor why you would declare Harris a clear-cut case when you apparently know so little about about him.

Because when it comes to what the Bible has to say about who is saved and what that evidence is, there are only two "classes" of people...false brethren, and true ones.

I "jam them" into where God's word "jams them"...
Children of God, or children of the devil ( 1 John 3:10 ).
"Wheat" or "tares" ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).
"Sheep" or "goats" ( Matthew 25:31-46 ).

There are only two sides.
One is either for God, or against Him ( Matthew 12:30, Mark 9:40, Luke 9:50, Luke 11:23 ).

There is no middle ground.

 

[Dave G]

OK then, here it is again, the two kinds of Calvinists according to Dave Gilbert:

I'll break it down into simpler terms:

1) "Calvinism" ( "TULIP" ) is the truth of man's condition before God and how salvation works.
2) There are two types of "Christian"...
Those Christ never knew ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) and those He did ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

The first type will never be led into all truth ( John 16:13 ) and will never truly believe on Him and His finished work on the cross for them.
The second will.

The first type of "Christian" is a religious person whose heart has never been changed by God.
But they can and often do come out the gate looking and acting like true believers.

The second has a genuine heart-to-heart relationship with Jesus Christ, and they may fall, but they always get back up ( Proverbs 24:16 ).

At this point it may be too soon to tell... but to me, Mr. Harris fits the first.
If or when he comes to his senses, then I will re-evaluate my opinion of the matter.

 

[InTheLight]

If Mr. Harris doesn't return on his own, then it's because Christ never knew him.

If he is Christ's, then he will weather this trial and return to his Saviour.
If not, then he never was.
It really is that "cut and dried".

Oh my.

According to Calvinism you are either Elect or you are Not Elect.

Elect or non-Elect from before the foundation of the world.

It really is that "cut and dried."

Nothing Mr. Harris does or doesn't do can change that.

Or so I've been told umpteen thousand times by Calvinists.

I know how salvation works, and it's all up to God.

If God saved Mr. Harris, then he will evidence that miraculous change of heart by waking up and repenting.

Well, which is it? Does God cause Mr. Harris to repent? Or does Mr. Harris wake up and repent?


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[Dave G]

Oh my.

According to Calvinism you are either Elect or you are Not Elect.

Elect or non-Elect from before the foundation of the world.

It really is that "cut and dried."

Nothing Mr. Harris does or doesn't do can change that.

Or so I've been told umpteen thousand times by Calvinists.

That's how it works, ITL.

Elect = saved.
"Non-elect" = lost.

Nothing any of us can do will ever influence God to have mercy and compassion upon any one of us.
He is not a respecter of persons.

Well, which is it? Does God cause Mr. Harris to repent? Or does Mr. Harris wake up and repent?

That depends upon whether or not God began a work in him, and will continue it ( Philippians 1:6 ).

Either way, Mr. Harris will do one of two things...

If he is one of Christ's sheep who cannot fall away, then he will return.
If he isn't, then he will prove it by continuing in his present state.

 

[InTheLight]

That's how it works, ITL.

Elect = saved.
"Non-elect" = lost.

Nothing any of us can do will ever influence God to have mercy and compassion upon any one of us.
He is not a respecter of persons.

You did write:

"If Mr. Harris doesn't return on his own, then it's because Christ never knew him."

So it seems that Mr. Harris left Calvinism on his own and he will return on his own. That sure sounds like "free will" to me.

 

[atpollard]

You did write:

"If Mr. Harris doesn't return on his own, then it's because Christ never knew him."

So it seems that Mr. Harris left Calvinism on his own and he will return on his own. That sure sounds like "free will" to me.

Of course Mr Harris has the Free Will to claim belief in, or to reject belief in Calvinism (or Classic Arminianism, or Wesleyanism), or what color shirt he will wear today, or whether he will cheat on his lover or not. What Mr Harris does not have is the free will to do is to "please god", or to be "foreknown" (relationship) by God, or to have "faith" in God. Those are all a GIFT from God, given by grace (UNMERITED favor). [UNMERITED = "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." - Romans 9:16]

If Mr Harris is one of "those who are called according to GOD's purpose" [Romans 8:28-30], then Mr Harris will return to God because Jesus' "sheep hear HIS voice, and HE knows them, and they follow HIM; and HE gives eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of HIS hand." [John 10:27-28]

If Mr Harris is not one of "those who are called according to GOD's purpose", then Mr Harris will not return to God because he "went out from us, but he was not really of us; for if he had been of us, he would have remained with us; but he went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]

The eternal destiny of Mr Harris rests where it has always rested ... in the sovereign hands of God.

 

[InTheLight]

If Mr Harris is one of "those who are called according to GOD's purpose" [Romans 8:28-30], then Mr Harris will return to God because Jesus' "sheep hear HIS voice, and HE knows them, and they follow HIM; and HE gives eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of HIS hand." [John 10:27-28]

If Mr Harris is not one of "those who are called according to GOD's purpose", then Mr Harris will not return to God because he "went out from us, but he was not really of us; for if he had been of us, he would have remained with us; but he went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]

The eternal destiny of Mr Harris rests where it has always rested ... in the sovereign hands of God.

Mr. Harris is either Elect or he in non-Elect. According to Calvinism, this was decided before the foundation of the world. It's already been decided.

1. Let's suppose he is Elect. He professed faith in Christ, he became a respected, knowledgeable voice for Calvinism, authored some books, preached a lot, spoke at a bunch of conferences, etc. Now he says, "no, no, no, I repudiate my beliefs in God. Everything I preached and taught about is false. In fact, I'm going to become a crusader for gay rights." Tomorrow he gets hit by a bus and he dies.

Where does Mr. Harris spend eternity?

2. Let's suppose Mr. Harris is Elect. He professed faith in Christ, he became a respected, knowledgeable voice for Calvinism, authored some books, preached a lot, spoke at a bunch of conferences, etc. Now he says, "no, no, no, I repudiate my beliefs in God. Everything I preached and taught about is false. In fact, I'm going to become a crusader for gay rights." He quietly fades away, lives until he's in his late 80's, never repents and never comes back to Christ. He dies at age 89.

Where does Mr. Harris spend eternity?

 

[atpollard]

Mr. Harris is either Elect or he in non-Elect. According to Calvinism, this was decided before the foundation of the world. It's already been decided.

1. Let's suppose he is Elect. He professed faith in Christ, he became a respected, knowledgeable voice for Calvinism, authored some books, preached a lot, spoke at a bunch of conferences, etc. Now he says, "no, no, no, I repudiate my beliefs in God. Everything I preached and taught about is false. In fact, I'm going to become a crusader for gay rights." Tomorrow he gets hit by a bus and he dies.

Where does Mr. Harris spend eternity?

2. Let's suppose Mr. Harris is Elect. He professed faith in Christ, he became a respected, knowledgeable voice for Calvinism, authored some books, preached a lot, spoke at a bunch of conferences, etc. Now he says, "no, no, no, I repudiate my beliefs in God. Everything I preached and taught about is false. In fact, I'm going to become a crusader for gay rights." He quietly fades away, lives until he's in his late 80's, never repents and never comes back to Christ. He dies at age 89.

Where does Mr. Harris spend eternity?

You really have no clue what ELECT means, do you?

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." [John 10:26]
Q. ... but what if someone that was not one of his sheep believed?

• A.: It can't happen. The reason they do not believe is BECAUSE they are not one of His sheep.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;" [John 10:27]
Q. ... but what if one of his sheep did not hear Jesus?

• A.: Then Jesus lied and we are all still dead in our sins.

Q. ... but what if Jesus did not know one of His sheep?

• A.: Then Jesus lied, God is not omniscient and we are all still dead in our sins.

Q. ... but what if one of Jesus sheep refused to follow Him?

• A.: Then Jesus lied and we are all still dead in our sins.

However, one of Jesus' sheep can wander away, and in that case ...3 So He told them this parable, saying, 4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' 7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. [Luke 15:3-7]

"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." [John 10:28]
Q. ... but what if someone that was not one of his sheep and given eternal life later perishes because they were snatched out of His hand?

• A.: Which part of "ETERNAL" is temporary? Which part of "NNE" really means someone?

To answer directly, failure to persevere indicates that Mr Harris was not one of the elect. I quoted from the place where John offered the exact same message ..."They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]

Don't you accept John's answer to your "what if" questions? (Calvinists do.)