The sure sign that will indicate if he was and is elect of God is that he will come back to Lord Jesus and repent and believe rightly again!You really have no clue what ELECT means, do you?
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." [John 10:26]
Q. ... but what if someone that was not one of his sheep believed?
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;" [John 10:27]
- A.: It can't happen. The reason they do not believe is BECAUSE they are not one of His sheep.
Q. ... but what if one of his sheep did not hear Jesus?
Q. ... but what if Jesus did not know one of His sheep?
- A.: Then Jesus lied and we are all still dead in our sins.
Q. ... but what if one of Jesus sheep refused to follow Him?
- A.: Then Jesus lied, God is not omniscient and we are all still dead in our sins.
However, one of Jesus' sheep can wander away, and in that case ...3 So He told them this parable, saying, 4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' 7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. [Luke 15:3-7]
- A.: Then Jesus lied and we are all still dead in our sins.
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." [John 10:28]
Q. ... but what if someone that was not one of his sheep and given eternal life later perishes because they were snatched out of His hand?
- A.: Which part of "ETERNAL" is temporary? Which part of "N
NE" really means someone?
To answer directly, failure to persevere indicates that Mr Harris was not one of the elect. I quoted from the place where John offered the exact same message ..."They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]
Don't you accept John's answer to your "what if" questions? (Calvinists do.)
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Onetime TGC Calvinist Fraternity Insider Is 'Not a Christian'
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Not in the "I can get God to save me by believing on Christ " sense, it isn't.
Again, man's will, tied to his nature, only makes choices according to what motivates it.
The corruption of sin and the love of it, permeates all people who are not born again.
This is why Christ told us, "Ye must be born again."
He didn't just leave "Calvinism"...he left Jesus Christ.
This tells me he probably wasn't born again.
We'll see what happens, but I've seen a lot of situations like this, and they rarely resolve themselves towards returning to Christ.
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Classic double talk.
Calvinists' logic of begging the question:
Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."
Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes. Genuine Christians actually know God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:12). Romans 8:9; Romans 8:16; John 4:24. Where can one go where God is not? (Acts of the Apostles 17:28; Psalms 139:7)
None of us can honestly deny having meant a person we remember meeting.
Hillsong Leader Denies Renouncing Faith, but Says He's on 'Incredibly Shaky Ground'
This is not just a one camp issue. Many ‘professing’ Christians fall away from both camps.
This is not just a one camp issue. Many ‘professing’ Christians fall away from both camps.
Hillsong Leader Denies Renouncing Faith, but Says He's on 'Incredibly Shaky Ground'
This is not just a one camp issue. Many ‘professing’ Christians fall away from both camps.
Yes, it happens on both sides. The difference here is that Mr. Harris claimed election from before the foundation of the world and not a "decisional" type of election. It is ironic to think someone that denies free will then uses that free will to leave God.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
So you are claiming that God is not sovereign and was powerless to stop Jeffrey Dahmer?Classic double talk.
Calvinists' logic of begging the question:
Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."
Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."
(I think your view of an impotent god is even scarier than trusting in an Omnipotent God whose reasons are a mystery to me.)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not.
God does not make men sin (which is the core flaw in the fantasy argument presented).
Benjamin had already presented the false either-or, so I called him on the "OR".
atpollard
Well-Known Member
So every politician that claims they will not raise taxes MUST be a fiscal conservative ... because they said so, and made speaces about it, and wrote articles about if for campaign fliers, and became a celebrity on the talk-show circuit talking about not raising taxes. So when they vote for a tax increase, the only POSSIBLE conclusion isthat a fiscal conservative has completely changed his deeply held convictions. It is inconcievable that any human being would say something that isn't true for some personal motive. After all, all men are basically "good" and Romans completely misunderstands human nature.
First of all, #4.
Secondly, I expect people claiming to be Christians, writing books about it, speaking at seminars about it to have a higher ethical standard than politicians.
After all, all men are basically "good" and Romans completely misunderstands human nature.
Oh yeah, a big #4.
No, that is your strawman argument. You're really big on #4's today.
OK, here's an amended version:
Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happens, He is Sovereign."
Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
Bill C: "Adam did. When Adam fell, he condemned all future humans to have a sin nature."
Bob A: "And who determined that Adam would have a sin nature and that Adam's sin nature would be passed onto all humans?"
Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
How was it violated? It affirms the T and shows that he may have never been elect in the first place. Ever heard of Judas?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
God "will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." [Eze 36:26] Why will he do this, you ask? God will do this because God must do this, and God must do this because "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked". [Jer 17:9]
God "will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." [Eze 36:27] Why will he do this, you ask? God will do this because God must do this, and God must do this because "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." [1Co 2:14]
So when David says "Again, man's will, tied to his nature, only makes choices according to what motivates it", he is not engaging in "Classic double talk". As indicated from the verses above (some of many places), the "natural man" with the old "heart of stone" cannot understand the foolishness of God and will neither seek nor obey God. The old man is free to follow his "natural" desires anywhere (except towards the foolishness of God). It is God who replaces the dead heart (of stone) with a living heart (of flesh) and by grace gives His Spirit to enable men to understand the spiritual (empowering them to choose contrary to their old nature).
It is not DOUBLE TALK, it is TRUTH from Scripture.
#3.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Sarcasm is not a strawman argument ... it is actually #5.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Inappropriate response.
Completely appropriate. The verses you cite in Ezekiel are specifically written to the Israelites. Plus, it is a prophecy. Ergo, those verses are not written to the people you claiming.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Technically none of the Bible was written to anyone living today.
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