Onetime TGC Calvinist Fraternity Insider Is 'Not a Christian'

[Dave G]

Quite the drama queen. Just stop good grief.

Sometimes you make me laugh, Mark.

 

[InTheLight]

Let's take faith, for example:
David Cloud, a prominent Independent Baptist, says this about faith:

Kind of wondering why David Cloud is put forth as some sort of "prominent" Baptist.

" The faith for salvation comes by hearing God’s Word."
You and him agree, and I can point to at least one thread where you have stated this in almost the exact, same words.
Do you deny this?

I don't, because if I denied it, I'd be denying Romans 10:17.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Here's a bit more from Cloud's website:
"Salvation is by the grace of God alone, which means that it is a free gift that is neither merited nor secured in whole or in part by any virtue or work of man or by any religious duty or sacrament. "

Now, I don't recall you ever making this exact statement, but I seem to remember seeing something like it on several occasions.

Mr. Cloud then turns right around and says the below... which negates the sentence above, because for the sinner to receive God's salvation by doing anything ( except to sit there and passively receive it ), is to merit it.

" The sinner receives God’s salvation by repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Again, you and him appear to agree... but in order for me to prove it, I would have to dig through quite a few threads.
Do you deny this?

I don't. I also affirm Acts 20:21
Acts 20:21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

There's also the clear call to action by Peter to repent:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Do we receive Jesus Christ? Yes, we do.
Colossians 2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

However, if you're going to take exception to what he says and make the statement that people shouldn't copy and paste from one guy and try to act as if he represents everyone else who holds to a particular doctrine or set of doctrines, then may I suggest not lumping everyone who agrees with TULIP in with the beliefs and teachings of John Calvin?

Anybody that believes in predestination as God selecting people from eternity past to be Elect and selecting people to be non-Elect; anybody that believes in people as being walking corpses with no capacity to believe the gospel without being given a regenerated heart in order to believe, yes, I will call them a Calvinist. Deal with it.

 

[Dave G]

Kind of wondering why David Cloud is put forth as some sort of "prominent" Baptist.

Because like Max Younce, Dave Hunt, John R. Rice and many others, he is vocal about being against "Calvinism" ( his name for the doctrines of election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification ).

Since I was once an "independent Baptist", I can tell you that he is, or was, well-known in some circles.

I don't, because if I denied it, I'd be denying Romans 10:17.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Would that "hearing" be by physical hearing, or spiritual "hearing"?

There's also the clear call to action by Peter to repent:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That clear call was to people that had already believed:

" Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? " ( Acts of the Apostles 2:37 )

Read the entire passage...Peter is telling those who had responded favorably, what they should then do.

Do we receive Jesus Christ? Yes, we do.

Believers do.
Unbelievers do not.

God's word answers the question as to why some believe and why some do not ( John 8:47, John 10:26 ).

Anybody that believes in predestination as God selecting people from eternity past to be Elect and selecting people to be non-Elect; anybody that believes in people as being walking corpses with no capacity to believe the gospel without being given a regenerated heart in order to believe, yes, I will call them a Calvinist. Deal with it.

Then deal with me considering what you affirm to be the truth, as heresy.

I believe God's words.
All of them.
With no question as to their veracity.

When you can prove that a passage like Psalms 65:4, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5 or 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 doesn't actually mean what they say, then I will believe in something else and you won't have to call me a "Calvinist" anymore.

 

[InTheLight]

Because, like Max Younce, Adrian Rogers, John R. Rice and many others, he is very vocal about being against "Calvinism" ( his name for the doctrines of election, predestination, calling, justification and glorification ).

Well, he's not wrong about Calvinism.

Would that "hearing" be by physical hearing, or spiritual "hearing"?

Both.

That clear call was to people that had already believed:

Yes, I understand you need to believe that in order to make your theology fit into scripture.

" Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? " ( Acts of the Apostles 2:37 )

Read the passage...Peter is telling those who had responded favorably, what they should then do.

They were:
"pricked in the heart" KJV
"cut to the heart" NKJV
"pierced to the heart" NASB (also has note: "wounded in their conscience")
"cut to the heart" NIV and ESV

They were not "given a new heart", they were not regenerated (yet), they were not believers (yet)

Also, believers do not ask "What should we do?"

Then deal with me considering what you affirm to be the truth as heresy.
I believe God's words.

Well, you either don't believe God's word or you have reading comprehension problems.

It is crystal clear in that passage in Acts 2 that the hearers of Peter's sermon were convicted of their sin, that they were distraught because they had crucified the son of God (whom God raised up) and they asked "what should we do?" Peter's response was that they should "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". The clear implication is that their sins were not forgiven, ergo, they were not believers. They had to DO SOMETHING--namely repent.

 

[Dave G]

Well, he's not wrong about Calvinism.

Your opinion, which you are completely entitled to.

Both.

Then deaf people cannot believe the Gospel if it's by both.

Yes, I understand you need to believe that in order to make your theology fit into scripture.

I get my understanding of Scripture ( "theology" ) from God ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).

They were:
"pricked in the heart" KJV
"cut to the heart" NKJV
"pierced to the heart" NASB (also has note: "wounded in their conscience")
"cut to the heart" NIV and ESV

They were not "given a new heart", they were not regenerated (yet), they were not believers (yet)

Also, believers do not ask "What should we do?"

Sure they do.
Being "pricked in their hearts" is the same as "being convicted by the Holy Spirit".
Anyone who is convicted of their sins by the Spirit of God through His word, will then ask, "what do I do now?"

The Philippian jailer, an elect person who would later believe, asked what he should do ( Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 ).

 

[Dave G]

Well, you either don't believe God's word or you have reading comprehension problems.

I wouldn't say that about you, ITL.
I would say that you simply don't believe the very words.
All of them.

Some words you do seem to believe.

It is crystal clear in that passage in Acts 2 that the hearers of Peter's sermon were convicted of their sin, that they were distraught because they had crucified the son of God (whom God raised up) and they asked "what should we do?" Peter's response was that they should "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". The clear implication is that their sins were not forgiven, ergo, they were not believers. They had to DO SOMETHING--namely repent.

It's equally clear to me that that the "doing" was in response to God's doing...His convicting of their hearts and consciences by His Spirit.
The Lord acts upon someone, and they re-act ( Psalms 65:4 ).

The Lord acted, and Paul, on his way to Damascus, reacted.
The Ethiopian eunuch did the same, as did Lydia, whose heart the Lord opened so that she attended to ( listened intently to ) the words of Paul ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

God bless you, sir.

 

[InTheLight]

The Philippian jailer, an elect person who would later believe, asked what he should do ( Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 ).

We've been over the account of the Phillipian jailer. A plain reading of the passages shows he was not a believer, he was not yet saved when he asked, "What must I do to be saved?" It was only when Paul and Silas 'spoke the word of the Lord to him' (Acts 16:32) that he believed and was subsequently baptized.

Again, I understand your need for the Phillipian jailer to already have been a believer when he asked "What must I do to be saved?". And you can play semantics with "elect" and "believer" if you like.

 

[Dave G]

We've been over the account of the Phillipian jailer. A plain reading of the passages shows he was not a believer, he was not yet saved when he asked, "What must I do to be saved?" It was only when Paul and Silas 'spoke the word of the Lord to him' (Acts 16:32) that he believed and was subsequently baptized.

To me, you're equating moment of belief with God deciding to save someone according to His own purposes and grace.
They are not the same.

Salvation of a person happened before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

Again, I understand your need for the Phillipian jailer to already have been a believer when he asked "What must I do to be saved?". And you can play semantics with "elect" and "believer" if you like.

"Elect" means "chosen".

The believers at Thessalonica were declared as "elect" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4 ) and "chosen to salvation" ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
The "strangers" scattered throughout Pontus, etc in 1 Peter 1 were declared as "elect" in 1 Peter 1:2.
If you want to play semantics, then change the word "elect" to something else.

But I don't recommend messing with the word of God.

 

[InTheLight]

To me, you're equating moment of belief with salvation.
They are not the same.

They are the same, from our point of view. When people believe they are justified. Forgiven. Saved.

You conflating man's point of reference in time when salvation occurs with God's point of reference in time as to when that happens.

"Elect" means "chosen".
If you want to play semantics, then change the word "elect" to something else.

I don't have to. I simply have to remember that God's time is not the same as man's time. In man's frame of reference people BECOME believers. In God's frame of reference they either are or are not believers, since before time existed.

But I don't recommend messing with the word of God.

Then you should quit forcing your beliefs onto the text.

 

[Benjamin]

God opens the heart, He doesn't exchange it. The Word demonstrates Influence and Response not Cause and Effect. Trying to force interpretations to reverse this is what's wrong with Calvinism. Such Deterministic fantasies fulfilled would have to forego the truth in love...

 

[Dave G]

They are the same, from our point of view. When people believe they are justified. Forgiven. Saved.

You conflating man's point of reference in time when salvation occurs with God's point of reference in time as to when that happens.

I'm using Scriptural declarations like Ephesians 1:4-5 to determine when a person was saved by God.

In God's frame of reference they either are or are not believers, since before time existed.

Exactly.
I'm glad you agree.

That is precisely what Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:29-30 and a few others develop.

Then you should quit forcing your beliefs onto the text.

If it were only that complicated, ITL.

Reading and believing it are all that I am doing.
Best wishes to you and yours, sir.

 

[Dave G]

God opens the heart, He doesn't exchange it.

He has to open a heart that is closed to Him?

Is that not what a "stony heart" ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ) is...hard, and closed to God?
Is that not what Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18 and John 3:19-20 ( as well as many of the Psalms ) describe?

What about Lydia's will, Benjamin?
Did the Lord stop to consider that she may not have wanted her heart opened?

The God I know and love does what He wants with His creation ( Daniel 4:35 ), but I somehow get the idea that you think that He "sets limits" as to how far He is willing to go when it comes to the subject of man's will and freedom to choose.

You admit that He opens the heart...
In order to open something, it must have been closed.

Who closed it?
Why was it closed?

"Free will is defined as “volition” and this sustains the meaning that man has the ability to consciously choose; one cannot do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If man's response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the man then man's volition logically becomes void. ~Benjamin"

Why could Lydia not consciously choose to open it herself of her own free will and volition?

 

[Benjamin]

I'm glad you agree, Benjamin.

All people who that believe that God works through influencing and judgment of the human volitional attributes that He created with His creatures to have believes that God does indeed get the credit for opening the heart. But don't let this go to your head, because those verses you present don't back up your deterministic doctrines at all, you merely overlook that there is a huge difference between Influence and Response vs Cause and Effect pertaining to the heart when you read and interpret those verses with with your Determinism' glasses on.

 

[Dave G]

But don't let this go to your head, because those verses you present don't back up your deterministic doctrines at all, you merely overlook that there is a huge difference between Influence and Response vs Cause and Effect pertaining to the heart when you read and interpret those verses with with your Determinism' glasses on.

Wait...let's not get into a hurry to move on, OK?

Take a look at my post above again.
Try refreshing the page.

 

[Dave G]

All people who that believe that God works through influencing and judgment of the human volitional attributes that He created with His creatures to have believes that God does indeed get the credit for opening the heart.

Why would anyone's heart need to be opened?

Is there something wrong with a person's will, that prevents their heart from being opened by themselves?
If a person's volition ( their force of will ) is truly free, then they should be able to open their own hearts to God... in and of themselves without God doing the opening.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Benjamin]

Why would anyone's heart need to be opened?

Good question, if you would really like to know Dave, put down the Determinist glasses and open your eyes.

If you pay attention to the story of creation you could learn the nature of man (Adam) in general, the sense in which the heart was closed after having been created in the likeness and image of God, having received sense, reason and intellect (human volition) became prideful and wished to be as God (Geneses 3:22). This sin would be a natural response to the gift of creation in this magnitude.

God knew that by nature man would respond this way to His wonderful gift of live with these attributes! That is why in love for all His creation from before the beginning He made a promise to them, spoken of in John 3:16. The promise consisted of light being in the world from the beginning in the world but many would not receive what was given (John 1:9) therein the power of the Gospel comes into play. It is a real power wherein ALL humans can be influenced by this TRUTH, one wherein none will have an excuse (Romans 1:20) to freely and with thanks (Romans 1:21) for their creation. No excuse to NOT respond to His influences, this light from the Mediator between God and man, …and God will judge this (YOUR) response. God will judge this response because that is His way, His Nature (Deuteronomy 32:4), in truth.

Dave, this is a pretty good reason not to use the excuse of inability, that you, in your pride you don’t use the excuse that you couldn’t find it in your own heart (unable) and had no choice (being unthankful for your creation) but to accept your fate. And another good reason NOT to start on a campaign of trying to teach such nonsense to others that they have no choice and no ability to respond unless God has specially prechosen and forces it upon them. (1 John 1:5-6)

So you see, God opens human volitional hearts with the truth of the Gospel, the Light, which He wisely revealed in such a way in which man needed and could know in truth how much God loved them and therein could freely as per their God given attributes believe this proof of the sacrifice of His Son, put away his pride and use his God given human volition, after hearing of and seeing and loving the truth of this miracle to again make another human volitional choice to put forth his hand and take gift of life given by God in this offer. (Genesis 3:22). That is the choice God gave all men from the beginning.

Why would you need to go into this with your own eyes open? Because in truth you must see and freely respond in love of these truths of how you came into the world and freely repent of wanting to be as God, BECAUSE, and THIS is very important, God will judge YOUR response AS ALL God’s are judgment in truth!

Seems you pretend to act that those who oppose your Determinist doctrines don't believe God opens the heart, and that doesn't seem very honest for someone who has been debate this as much as you.

Now with your Determinist glasses off, read of Lydia again:

(Act 16:14) And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

She "heard", she "attended" - it is that simple, the power of the Gospel opened her heart to the truth. You merely read your Determinism into the opening of her heart. But adhering to a little knowledge of the true inspired biblical order of salvation could go a long with way with you.

As you can see happened with Lydia, - Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you” (she). But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

Nah, I suspect you don't. The truth in reasoning would cramp you style of "teaching"...

 

[MB]

With respect, I'd appreciate you showing me where you see me doing that.
Please provide specific instances through quoting either past posts, or examples of Scriptures that I have done this with.

I have nothing to hide, so please show me, and the readers of this thread, where you believe that I have misused His words.
As an example, would you post a Scripture that says one thing, and I say that it states something else, or perhaps the complete opposite?

Something God's word actually says that I flat-out reject?

From my perspective, you seem to think that everything in the Bible fits "free will theology", and that man can perform an act to become saved.
In other words, you seem convinced that God's will is not what determines a person being born again ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ), but that man's will is the final determiner of who is saved and who is not.

Please provide Scripture ( other than Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 ), that clearly states that a person can do something and God will save them because of that action.
The reason I ask that this passage not be used, as to me, that one is far too easy to simply post and say, "there it is."


In addition, if you think that one verse should be enough, I urge you to build a case for your conclusions from more than one verse, if only to give it more support from His word.
One verse alone should never determine important points of doctrine...to me, that's how false teachers dupe the unsuspecting and those who don't study His words deeply.

Convince me with the Scriptures ( the more the better ), that man's will alone ultimately determines his destiny.

These all support free will and free will being demonstrated yet you'll shake it all off and deny what I believe is true.
These are verses that you have to get around to avoid free will;
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like
crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

I realize this is all for naught. It's useless to try to convince you of anything because your heart is so blasted hard. You can't stand it that you cannot convince me of Calvinism. To be saved we must all ask the Lord to save us . If He does save it is still the Lord Jesus Christ saving us not our selves. I've studied Calvinism for years now and haven't found even one thing in it supported by scripture The tulip comes from men with distorted views of scripture/
There is nothing you have ever said that has convinced me of your Calvinism. I feel sorry for you because you are deceived and you don't seem to care.
You quoting me so many times must mean you're upset that I will not believe in Calvinism. I belong to Christ the real Christ of the Bible I will never turn my back on my Lord.
MB

 

[MB]

Technically, MB doesn’t declare anything specific except “you are wrong” ...

So where is your proof for Calvinism. You act as if your so pious. Why not show your proof for Calvinism.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Hillsong Leader Denies Renouncing Faith, but Says He's on 'Incredibly Shakor later! nto sinning, but they Ground'

This is not just a one camp issue. Many ‘professing’ Christians fall away from both camps.

One can have severe doubts, fall back into sinning, but the sure proof that one had a real relationship with Jesus will be coming back to Him sooner or later!

 

[Yeshua1]

Technically none of the Bible was written to anyone living today.

Was though written for all of today today!