Featured Onetime TGC Calvinist Fraternity Insider Is 'Not a Christian'

First, you should probably learn to understand the fallacious nature of argument using a Strawman because it carries no value besides being considered an avoidance of drawing out the truth in an argument.

Second, your mystery plea and strawman arguments aside, it appears it would be you that does not believe God is Omnipotent enough to create beings with human volition that could have the ability by divine design (the attributes of sense, reason, intellect) to respond or not in love of the truths He reveals to them.

All of God’s ways are judgment, in truth, therefore your view of “Divine Deterministic Sovereignty” misplaces the truth of responsibility and voids the truth of His judgment on His created beings.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

I'll agree with that based on immediate context:

" Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But [as for them] whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord God." ( Ezekiel 11:17-21 ).

Who is the prophecy about?
Physical descendants of Abraham, or spiritual descendants ( Romans 4:1-13 )?

Ezekiel 36:16-36.

Again, who is this passage speaking about...the physical descendants of Abraham, the spiritual ones, or both?
I happen to believe it is both.

God shall take the children of Israel in the last days, gather them from the lands that they were scattered among, and bring them back into their own land.
They will then be instilled with a new heart and have His Spirit put within them.

What is this other than being born again ( John 3:3 ) and sealed by His Spirit ( Ephesians 1:13 ), the same as Gentile believers?
The process is the same, ITL.

Just because its context indicates born again Israelites in those passages, does not make the process of God installing a new heart any less true for the Gentile.


Ezekiel 11:19 and Ezekiel 36:26 are both true for any born again believer.
What those describe is exactly what happens when one is born again by the power and grace of God.

 

Nonsense, God does not have to recreate His beings with a "new heart" for them to respond to His influences. Any more than He recreated all men after Adam to not have the ability of human volition.

Romans 10:9, If YOU declare with YOUR mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in YOUR heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU will be saved.

Note: YOU is used 4 times in this verse alone. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

 

Firstly,

Debate tactics like building straw men really have no place when discussing the word of God.
It speaks, and we as believers in Jesus Christ either "listen", or we don't.
If we don't, it's because we are not really believers at all ( John 8:47 ).

There is no application of debate tactics when approaching God's very words...man-made methods of "proving or disproving" what Scripture actually states, and what is written on the page, fall flat.
It's like trying to fix a car with a sledgehammer...wrong tool for the job.

"Interpretation" is also irrelevant, because it says what it says.
What is written is what it means, and context is the only thing that matters.

Except that God's word itself describes man as being hopelessly in love with sin ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20 ) and there is none that seek Him in and of themselves ( Romans 3:10-18 and others ).
Continuing to strive for a God that creates men with a natural volition that is capable of either choosing Him or rejecting Him, is not what God's word develops, nor does it declare anywhere in the entire Bible.

To me, you don't believe that God is Omnipotent enough to overrule man's will to be saved from His wrath, and to decide our destinies based on His perfect and just judgment...that we are all deserving of death, and that He decides who to save and who to cast into well-deserved Hell fire.

His purpose to save someone over-rules what selfish and sinful men want.
The divine design argument ( that He makes men "free moral agents ) is not supported by His very words...it is wishful thinking on the part of people who don't like God exercising His right to have mercy and compassion on whom He wills ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), not on whom we will.

Man's will doesn't even enter in to the entire process, except to react when a person is born again by God's will alone ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).

God's word has already addressed man's responsibility, his attitude and his willingness to obey God.
"Total Depravity" clearly addresses man's responsibility, attitude from birth, and willingness to come to God, and and affirms His right to judge perfectly...because all men are rebellious and willful sinners that are incapable of coming to Him in repentance.

Just because you don't seem to believe the words on the page, does not make them any less true.
His judgment is clearly found in many places:
Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10:2-11, Psalms 14:1-3, Psalms 53:1-3.

This has been shown to you many times, and yet it seems to simply "bounce off".
Admittedly, it is your prerogative to dismiss these passages out of hand ( if that is what you are doing )...
But to tell someone that they don't mean what they say?


You're not doing that, are you?

 

You call it nonsense, I call it fact.

I agree that all men have volition...

But instead of being neutral, that volition is biased against Him unless He regenerates us.
The new birth is necessary, if we are to obey Him and have a relationship with Him.

Again, election in no way negates a man confessing from the heart, since God is the one who changed the person's heart in the first place and they then willingly chose Christ when He was preached to them.

I think that you might be surprised to find that I'm not surprised.

God acts, and the intended recipients of that action then re-act to His grace, kindness, mercy and power.
For example:

We love Him because He first loved us...the believer ( 1 John 4:19 ).
People believe, because they were ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
People don't believe, because they are not of His sheep ( John 10:26 ).
People come to Christ because the Father draws them ( John 6:44 ).
People come to Christ because it was given to them by the Father to do so ( John 6:65 ).

This all points back to a God who loves His people, and whose power graciously overcomes their natural detestation of Him and His ways in order for them to have a heart-to-heart relationship with Him.

 

You need to learn to recognize the difference between a "debate tactic" and the prupose of logic and the calling out of fallacies for the purpose of drawing out the truth in a debate.

Firstly, I did not use a fallacious "debate tactic" - I called out one that did resort to a fallacy in the debate. Second, if your goal is not to draw out the truth in these debates then you need to stay off my posts, because I have no interests in your special cosmic conscience revelations that are claimed to have a special understanding of the scripture apart from from logical truths.

 

Those the Father gave Christ the Calvinists take part of truth of election in Ephesians 1:4, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,” and forgo the rest of the truth that these were given, “In Christ”.

“If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers

The Biblical order of salvation concerning how those the Father gave Christ would also have to be ignored:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

…”In Christ”.

Paul mentions, “In Him,” “In Christ,” “In the Beloved,” in the first 13 verses of Ephesians:

v.1: “The saints who are at Ephesus, and who are faithful in Christ Jesus.”

v.3: “Blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.”

v.4: “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.”

v.6: “Which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”

v.7: “In Him we have redemption through His blood.”

v.9: “Which He purposed in Him.”

v.10: “The summing up of all things in Christ.”

v.11: “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance.”

v.12: “We who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.”

v.13: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.”



To ignore the true means of election through the divine biblical order of salvation is to give false doctrine to support your preconceived systematic deterministic theology, you can not have your view of election both ways, as a truth of coming form the heart and not the truth being that one's heart must first be predetermined to respond a certain way.

 

I know the difference, and I'm telling you that debate tactics, don't apply.

But, I will say this...
They apply to people that can be swayed by them.

I'll reply to what I wish, the same as you have the freedom to do.
My goal is not to draw out the truth, but to declare it.

In addition, "logic" and man's faulty methods of understanding Scripture, couldn't apply less.
Your continued appeal to "logic" puzzles me, as God's children evidence their absolute rejection of it...

Faith is not "logical".
It is the antithesis of logic.

It is illogical to have faith in Someone who cannot be seen.

"Logic" and faith do not and cannot mix, Benjamin.
Where you got the idea that the Bible can be understood logically, I do not know...but it wasn't from the Bible itself, in my estimation.
I also suspect that the reason you do not believe in God's choice of the sinner to salvation, is not because the words aren't on the page, but because it doesn't fit your logic.

As for God's children having a special understanding of Scripture, I would say that they have the only true understanding of it.
He hides His secret with the righteous ( Proverbs 3:32 ).
He hides Himself from the worldly wise, and reveals Himself to babes ( Matthew 11:25, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).

On purpose.

It can't be "pre-conceived", because I never learned it from men.
Since I came to it strictly from my reading of His word, and get it out of His word, then "pre-conception" doesn't apply.

In order for it to be "pre-conception", I would have to approach God's word with an already-formed idea...and then attempt to prove that already-formed idea using His word.
Wouldn't I?

But I don't.
I take His every word, and I believe it.
As an example:

Let's take the "idea" that men are incapable of repentance and belief on Christ, all on their own.
The Lord Jesus Himself deals with this in one statement ( although there are several that come to mind ):

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 )

Preconception?
No...
Belief of the very words.

 

That's not the biblical order of salvation...
This is:

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

He chose, He sanctified us by the blood of Christ and the power of His Spirit, He gave us the gift of belief ( Philippians 1:29 ), and He then "called" us by His grace and mercy.

What you've quoted is the biblical order of believing the Gospel, and then being sealed by the Holy Ghost.
The indwelling of the Spirit after being regenerated and believing on Christ.
Regeneration, or being born again, is not found anywhere in Ephesians 1:13.

Look at the words:

" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:13 )

After the person heard the Gospel of their salvation, after they believed, they were sealed.
No mention of being regenerated, no mention of being born again.
There is no declaration of it.

Assumption of it?
Implication of it?

Now that's an entirely different matter.

 

It is a DARN good thing that Romans doesn’t have a Chapter 9 before Chapter 10 that talks all about God the potter acting SOVEREIGNLY with respect to the vessels that He created and the vessels having no cause to complain ... BECAUSE HE IS THE POTTER!

 

It is quite apparent that you don't know the difference if you don't see or personally value how drawing out the truth in a debate does apply, for anyone getting to the truth that is. Again:

That says to me you are not swayed by logical principles for drawing out the truth. No surprise there Dave, rather you believe you are swayed by your special insights which you value your "teaching" more than arriving at basic logical truths.

Yeah, I know Dave, you came up with the entire systematic theology of Determinism and the TULIP all on your own without ever reading a Calvinist. What an insightful person you must be.

 

I agree with your comments to that other poster. I got thinking about judgement and justice. God ultimately makes sure justice if carried out. Why would he? Because justice is right and justice is good. So sinners doing unjust thing they cannot be ordained to do them for it would have God not doing something just and good. and he's always just and good.

 

God CAN do lots of things. God COULD have placed the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil on the top of a mountain in the middle of an ocean guarded by an angel with a flaming sword ... but the Bible says that is not what God DID do.

God COULD have killed Adam and Eve immediately for their rebellion, but the Bible says that is not what God DID do.

With respect to salvation, God COULD have done a lot of things, but the Bible tells us what God DID do.

[Romans 8:28-30] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

That is what God did.

[Ephesians 2:4-10 NASB] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This is also what God did.

 

The Potter also remakes the lumps which have flaws in them.
As far as complaint you seem to be complaining. God is all powerful He is not described as Sovereign in scripture and besides even your definition of the word Sovereign is wrong. Calvinist use this word to limit God in what He can do. All things are possible with God He has no limitation. Neither does His Blood or atonement.
MB

 

There are so many things wrong with this post all I can do is laugh but then I also start to cry...

 

You have good reason to cry over your false doctrine. Don;t cry just accept the truth of the gospel.
MB

 

Oh believe me, I do. The Gospel is crystal clear and I believe every word of it.

 

I never seem to get tired of meditating on that verse. Yes, not only does justice get carried out but God in His great love uses His Own Son to pay the price of His creature’s inequities and we can be sure that His judgment in the matter is in truth based on wherein we all must put our faith and hope in Jesus Christ to give us mercy in His grace - in truth.

There won’t be any excuses that one didn’t have a choice to accept Jesus Christ in a genuine love of the truth that He offers forgiveness to all men. That IS the Gospel message that we are instructed to give.

1Jn 1:5-6 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

I believe it is likely that Joshua Harris held the truth in unrighteousness, having been shown the truth, as we all are, so they (we, all of God's creatures) have no excuse, he insisted, complained even, that he had no choice (true human volition) but to be forced to take what he was given. He knew of God but wasn’t thankful for the choice he was given. I think God judges the heart on such matters. Perhaps, being not thankful he became vain and his heart was darkened – while professing himself to be wise he became a fool.

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

If this is true then you'd have no argument.I have peace in my Salvation and I'd like you to have it too.
MB

 

Which verse in Romans 9 says that?