Open Baptists & Paedobaptism

[rlvaughn]

And if I was a Regulative sort of person, I would regard [1 Corinthians 14:26] as a clear scriptural ‘Yes’ for any practice that was edifying, whether or not I could find an example of it in the New Testament.

That is an odd construction of the Regulative Principle as I have always understood it, and at odds with the way you defined it as well:

...the Regulative Principle says “Only do this thing in church if Scripture gives clear warrant to do so”.

Or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by “any practice”?

Perhaps we should call it the Constructive Principle: do that which builds; don’t do that which does not build. The question then becomes, “What is it that builds?”

I have not heard that terminology, but in recent years Steve M. Schlissel of Messiah’s Covenant Community Church in Brooklyn has promoted what he calls the Informed Principle of Worship. It seems like a compromise between the Normative Principle and the Regulative Principle. Someone explained it this way:

• If the Bible commands it, should we do it? Yes!
• If the Bible forbids it, should we do it? No!
• If the Bible neither commands or forbids it, should we do it? It depends …

Might come out similarly to what you suggest.

 

[George Antonios]

you may not understand how baptism symbolizes the new covenant

I don't. Please explain it succinctly with scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

...using grape juice and leavened bread cut into cubes for communion is not taught anywhere in scripture either.

The issue that I have with some who practice paedobaptism is their teaching of baptismal regeneration. Those who see baptism as a covenant sign of the New Covenant, yet still recognize their babies are unregenerate sinners until they show evidence of redemption, have a biblical argument that allows me to fellowship with them. I see no reason to re-baptize their children when their children seek membership in a Baptist Church.

Think that many who are now saved by the Lord will desire to obey Him and follow now in believers baptism! We do not require it to be done to get saved, but to be a member need to be believers baptized...

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Actually, there is evidence that water baptism replaced circumcision in the new covenant.

Romans 6:3-5 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27-29 [/I]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.[/I]

The connection is made between the everlasting Abrahamic Covenant and the everlasting New Covenant. God established circumcision with Abraham. God established baptism with the Church.

I am not saying Baptist churches should change their method of waiting to baptize until after evidence of faith. I am simply saying that a covenant baptism is a biblical argument as well.

It is highly debatable that the passages you referenced are even discussing water baptism.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Paedobaptism is NOT taught anywhere in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible. The Bible is very clear that ONLY those who can "repent and believe in the Gospel", must be baptised after they are saved.

That's not the question. The question is whether those who've already been baptized as infants should be baptized again, as a condition of joining a Baptist church.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Those who see baptism as a covenant sign of the New Covenant, yet still recognize their babies are unregenerate sinners until they show evidence of redemption, have a biblical argument that allows me to fellowship with them.

Yes, and that's traditionally the non-Baptist Reformed understanding of infant baptism, that baptism itself isn't regenerative, but instead that it symbolizes one's entrance into the covenant.

 

[AustinC]

Think that many who are now saved by the Lord will desire to obey Him and follow now in believers baptism! We do not require it to be done to get saved, but to be a member need to be believers baptized...

Here's the rub. A person who is drawn to faith at any age, but was baptized as an infant can honestly say they have been baptized and they are a believer. Have they fulfilled the command to be baptized?

 

[Humble Disciple]

A case for rebaptism is found in Acts of the Apostles 19:3-5, ". . . And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. . . ."

Can a person who was baptized as an infant, as an adult, be baptized by the Holy Spirit, without needing to be baptized by water again?

 

[Mikey]

That's not the question. The question is whether those who've already been baptized as infants should be baptized again, as a condition of joining a Baptist church.

You are starting from a false premis. The infants which the paedobaptists believe have been baptised, have not been baptised. Therefore there is no "re-baptising" of anyone.

Therefore the question really is "Should someone who hasn't been baptised be allowed to join membership of a Baptist church?"

 

[Humble Disciple]

You are starting from a false premis. The infants which the paedobaptists believe have been baptised, have not been baptised. Therefore there is no "re-baptising" of anyone.

Therefore the question really is "Should someone who hasn't been baptised be allowed to join membership of a Baptist church?"

If water baptism is symbolic anyway, isn't baptism of the Holy Spirit what ultimately matters? I am not saying that Baptist churches should practice infant baptism. This is a question related to the acceptance of adult members who've already been baptized as infants.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, and that's traditionally the non-Baptist Reformed understanding of infant baptism, that baptism itself isn't regenerative, but instead that it symbolizes one's entrance into the covenant.

Right. It is a covenant view that Reformed Baptists also hold. We just do a baby dedication and wait to see about baptism. The question becomes: Which practice is more biblically sound?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Let's be honest. American Baptists today are some of the worst paedobaptists on the planet.

For example, how many Baptist churches are using silly means like fire trucks to entice kids into baptism, before they are even mature enough to repent and believe themselves?

Christianity Today (June 8, 2000) and other news sources have reported on what appears to be a new trend in some large evangelical churches. First Baptist Church in Springdale, Arkansas hired a well-known former Disney World designer of children’s amusement rides to design two “high tech sets” for elementary age worship areas: Toon Town for first-through third-graders, and Planet 45 for fourth- and fifth-graders. The fully animated cartoon town has 26-foot-tall buildings. The rationale behind the $270,000 project is summed up by the church’s children’s minister: “Putting a talking head in front of kids for an hour doesn’t work ….This is a visual generation. We need to use technology to the max.” That includes a special baptistry which is built around a fire engine. When a child is baptized, the sirens sound and confetti is fired out of cannons.

When kids enter the rooms, a music video is playing on a giant screen in front, and they can amuse themselves at a row of nonviolent video game screens along walls. Once the service starts, “it’s 90 minutes of mostly frenetic activity, akin to a live television variety show from the 1950s. In Toon Town, buzzers and bells sound, lights flash from the ceiling and from car headlights on the set, bubbles come out the top of a giant bucket and fill the room, confetti streamers squirt out onto the first few rows, and mist is sprayed onto the crowd.” According to the designer, Bruce Barry, “It’s just like going on a ride at Disney World.”
Of Fire Engine Baptistries and Blasphemy

How many of these kids will grow up with the false assurance that they can live like unbelievers the rest of their lives and still go to heaven because they got baptized in a fire truck at vacation Bible school?

 

[37818]

Can a person who was baptized as an infant, as an adult, be baptized by the Holy Spirit, without needing to be baptized by water again?

I see no reason not to. See Acts of the Apostles 10:34-48. They received the Holy Spirit and not yet being baptized with water. Water baptism is not part of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 1:17. Only comes with the gospel.

Only immersion is "baptism." And only immersion with one's profession of the faith is Christian baptism. A religious rite called "baptism" does not make it baptism.

 

[AustinC]

If water baptism is symbolic anyway, isn't baptism of the Holy Spirit what ultimately matters? I am not saying that Baptist churches should practice infant baptism. This is a question related to the acceptance of adult members who've already been baptized as infants.

Thank you.
As a Baptist, I will never die on the hill of paedobaptism. I am simply pointing out that the person seeking membership has been baptized into the covenant as a child and now has confirmed his faith. Does God require a second baptism in order to be obedient to the ordinance of baptism? I don't see any scripture that would make such an argument for a second baptism. I also don't find an explicit argument for infant baptism. So, it seems that both sides are arguing from a normative procedure rather than a regulative position.

 

[Mikey]

Where does the Bible declare this law you have created?

That's a odd thing for a Baptist to say. This is what Baptists believe.

"But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women." - Acts 8:12

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" - Matthew 28:19 (are the unregenerate disciples?)

"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." - Galations 3:27 (are the unregenerate in Christ?)


Belief/Faith then baptism.

 

[robycop3]

Funny; I'm having a discussion with a "regenerational Baptist" on the CARM site. That person tried to tell me that, because I had to wait to be baptized for several months due to weather(Our church has no natatorium & baptizes in a creek) that I was not saved til then. I asked him when he acquired JESUS' authority to say when one was saved. I knew what I felt at the time & I was eager to be baptized, but had I died before I was baptized, I would've been just-as-saved as I am now.

My $0.02 is that the result of baptizing an unsaved person is a wet sinner, regardless of age. And every new Christian should be baptized ASAP. That includes those who were baptized before their salvations.

And they WERE baptized. Remember, "baptize" means "to immerse in water", regardless of purpose.

 

[Mikey]

Right. It is a covenant view that Reformed Baptists also hold. We just do a baby dedication and wait to see about baptism. The question becomes: Which practice is more biblically sound?

Baptists. i don't like baby dedications, it seems like a modern invention. Theology within baptist church (and others) is terrible.

 

[AustinC]

That's a odd thing for a Baptist to say. This is what Baptists believe.

"But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women." - Acts 8:12

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" - Matthew 28:19 (are the unregenerate disciples?)

"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." - Galations 3:27 (are the unregenerate in Christ?)


Belief/Faith then baptism.

No one is arguing the narrative of people who were baptized in the Bible.
Is there a prescriptive requirement that only someone who confesses salvation can be baptized? Do any of the verses you quoted make that prescription? You imply this, but is it specifically prescriptive?
I say that we must extend grace in this matter. If a person exhibits genuine salvation and was genuinely baptized, even as an infant, that person has fulfilled the ordinance of our King. I would admit that person into membership in the local church without hesitation.

 

[Mikey]

And they WERE baptized. Remember, "baptize" means "to immerse in water", regardless of purpose.

thats nonsense. if you take it that way then every time i go swimming im being Baptised, as i'm immersed in water.

 

[AustinC]

Funny; I'm having a discussion with a "regenerational Baptist" on the CARM site. That person tried to tell me that, because I had to wait to be baptized for several months due to weather(Our church has no natatorium & baptizes in a creek) that I was not saved til then. I asked him when he acquired JESUS' authority to say when one was saved. I knew what I felt at the time & I was eager to be baptized, but had I died before I was baptized, I would've been just-as-saved as I am now.

My $0.02 is that the result of baptizing an unsaved person is a wet sinner, regardless of age. And every new Christian should be baptized ASAP. That includes those who were baptized before their salvations.

And they WERE baptized. Remember, "baptize" means "to immerse in water", regardless of purpose.

Well, to my knowledge, the thief on the cross was never baptized. He entered heaven because God said he could come.