Order of Salvation

[Derf B]

They changed faith into a work. Ephesians 2:8-9 explicitly says "not of yourselves." The JW NWT Romans 4:3,". . . Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

"They"? which "they" are you talking about?

But WHAT is not of ourselves? The faith? or the salvation? If Jesus Christ was given to us for our salvation, that certainly is "not of ourselves". We are responsible for His death, but not for His coming; not for His sacrifice for our benefit.

There is both the idea that we are saved before we believe (Jesus died even while we were yet sinners) and the idea that we are saved because we believe (believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL be saved). Maybe there are two parts to salvation?

Maybe we're splitting hairs unnecessarily.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Both sides of the debate would say that the gospel is the difference.

That is indeed the main part of it. What constitutes believing Jesus is the Christ? 2 John 1:9; 1 John 5:1; Matthew 16:16-17; John 6:44-45. Salvation is a free gift that can only be received as a free gift, 2 Corinthians 4:3.

I don't believe that we are saved by believing Jesus is the christ. I believe that Christ Jesus who died for the sins of the world , was buried and rose again according to the scriptures .

 

[AustinC]

Here we have a man claiming Salvation with out repentance and faith. No belief required.
MB

Yep, I claim that it's all God all the time.

Now, show me again how a dead in trespasses and sins person conjures up faith and repentence. I'm waiting for how that happens. How did you, who were once dead in your trespasses and sins, conjure up your own faith and repentance so that it was needless for God to make you alive with Christ?

It would be like Lazarus, in the tomb, conjuring up his own faith and repentance to make himself walk out of the tomb. Yet, here you are imagining you can do it.

So, yep, I claim that salvation is all God, all the time. Change my mind.

 

[Barry Johnson]

"They"? which "they" are you talking about?

But WHAT is not of ourselves? The faith? or the salvation? If Jesus Christ was given to us for our salvation, that certainly is "not of ourselves". We are responsible for His death, but not for His coming; not for His sacrifice for our benefit.

There is both the idea that we are saved before we believe (Jesus died even while we were yet sinners) and the idea that we are saved because we believe (believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL be saved). Maybe there are two parts to salvation?

Maybe we're splitting hairs unnecessarily.

Erm there is a bit of 'slight of hand 'in there . You said we are saved before we believed and then quoted " while we were yet sinners Christ died for us " . How is that the same ? when we were yet sinners and Christ died for us ( not for our sins , but also the sins of the whole world ) we were ......
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: ( eph 2 )

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yep, I claim that it's all God all the time.

Now, show me again how a dead in trespasses and sins person conjures up faith and repentence. I'm waiting for how that happens. How did you, who were once dead in your trespasses and sins, conjure up your own faith and repentance so that it was needless for God to make you alive with Christ?

It would be like Lazarus, in the tomb, conjuring up his own faith and repentance to make himself walk out of the tomb. Yet, here you are imagining you can do it.

So, yep, I claim that salvation is all God, all the time. Change my mind.

lazarus was physically dead . How is that the picture? being consistent should you be preaching at the cemetery?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yep, I claim that it's all God all the time.

Now, show me again how a dead in trespasses and sins person conjures up faith and repentence. I'm waiting for how that happens. How did you, who were once dead in your trespasses and sins, conjure up your own faith and repentance so that it was needless for God to make you alive with Christ?

It would be like Lazarus, in the tomb, conjuring up his own faith and repentance to make himself walk out of the tomb. Yet, here you are imagining you can do it.

So, yep, I claim that salvation is all God, all the time. Change my mind.

without faith its impossible to please God .

 

[AustinC]

A dead person is ...erm dead , physically . Not sure what your point was there?
Grace is not a force . This isn't star wars . We are saved by God and not ourselves . Grace as apposed to being saved by works . How could any one ' assist ' the Holy Spirit sealing us until the Adoption ? How can anyone assist in birthing themselves ( born from above ) How can anyone assist God in baptising themselves into the body of Christ ? why do you even think this is possible for a human to do things that the bible says we cannot do ? We are commanded to believe the Gospel and that is all we can do . We are not commanded or told to baptise ourselves into the body of christ . We are not commanded or told to regenerate ourselves or to seal ourselves until the adoption . Why ? because we cannot do this .

Well, apparently Paul was wrong when he said "For by grace you have been saved." (Twice) So, tell us, Barry, how Paul is wrong.
Everyone is commanded to believe, but not everyone believes. Why is that? (Hint: Jesus tells us)
You do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
~ John 10: 26-29

 

[37818]

"They"? which "they" are you talking about?

But WHAT is not of ourselves? The faith? or the salvation? If Jesus Christ was given to us for our salvation, that certainly is "not of ourselves". We are responsible for His death, but not for His coming; not for His sacrifice for our benefit.

There is both the idea that we are saved before we believe (Jesus died even while we were yet sinners) and the idea that we are saved because we believe (believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL be saved). Maybe there are two parts to salvation?

Maybe we're splitting hairs unnecessarily.

Anyone who makes faith a work is not allowing salvation to be a free gift which can only be received by way of faith. If faith is a work to obtain salvation it is no longer grace.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Well, apparently Paul was wrong when he said "For by grace you have been saved." (Twice) So, tell us, Barry, how Paul is wrong.
Everyone is commanded to believe, but not everyone believes. Why is that? (Hint: Jesus tells us)
You do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
~ John 10: 26-29

Why do western folk in 2020 think they are the sheep that Jesus spoke of 2000 years ago . Calvinists are not sheep . Gentiles are not sheep, Americans are not sheep . Israel are the sheep

 

[AustinC]

without faith its impossible to please God .

Of course, which is why no one outside of being saved can please God. No one!

The only person who has faith is the person whom God has made alive with Christ.

Barry, with all the people who have shared Ephesians 2:1-10 with you, have you still not comprehended that salvation is entirely God's work?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Anyone who makes faith a work is not allowing salvation to be a free gift which can only be received by way of faith. If faith is a work to obtain salvation it is no longer grace.

The great error your making is thinking Faith is a work .
rom 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which work ...erm no, believeth in Jesus.
27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by ...work ? erm no faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Of course, which is why no one outside of being saved can please God. No one!

The only person who has faith is the person whom God has made alive with Christ.

Barry, with all the people who have shared Ephesians 2:1-10 with you, have you still not comprehended that salvation is entirely God's work?

So you were saved by faith ?

 

[37818]

I don't believe that we are saved by believing Jesus is the christ. I believe that Christ Jesus who died for the sins of the world , was buried and rose again according to the scriptures .

God does the saving on the ground of our believing Him. In other words, if God says we who believe in Jesus to be the Christ are born from Him, then we are born from Him (John 1:12-13). Now unless God is good to His word, we can believe all we can and we will still perish. Our believing does not cause regeneration, God does.

Salvation is a matter of what God does, not what we think we do. Titus 1:2.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Well, apparently Paul was wrong when he said "For by grace you have been saved." (Twice) So, tell us, Barry, how Paul is wrong.
Everyone is commanded to believe, but not everyone believes. Why is that? (Hint: Jesus tells us)
You do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
~ John 10: 26-29

Mathew 15 .
24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep , the western calvinithe house of Israel.

God does the saving on the ground of our beieving Him. In other words, if God says we who believe in Jesus to be the Christ are born from Him, then we are born from Him (John 1:12-13). Now unless God is good to His word, we can believe all we can and we will still perish. Our believing does not cause regeneration, God does.

Salvation is a matter of what God does, not what we think we do. Titus 1:2.

God regenerates those after believing . This is not the same as God being obligated because we believed. He's pleased to save those that believe ( 1 cor 1.18 ) . Its not ' causative ' . God , after we believe does the doing part .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Of course, which is why no one outside of being saved can please God. No one!

The only person who has faith is the person whom God has made alive with Christ.

Barry, with all the people who have shared Ephesians 2:1-10 with you, have you still not comprehended that salvation is entirely God's work?

because you keep missing the fact that Faith is not a work and believing doesnt ' do ' anything. God ' does ' save us but God has said in His word that its AFTER we believe . God commands us to believe his Gospel .

 

[37818]

Mathew 15 .
24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep , the western calvinithe house of Israel.

God regenerates those after believing . This is not the same as God being obligated because we believed. He's pleased to save those that believe ( 1 cor 1.18 ) . Its not ' causative ' . God , after we believe does the doing part .

God is not obligated by our believing Him. To think that God is some how obligated because we trust Him changes faith into a work.

Either one actually knows God through trusting in the work that Jesus did, being one whom He sent, or one is yet lost.
John 17:3.
1 John 5:12.
Romans 8:9.
Romans 8:16.
2 Corinthians 13:5.
John 14:6.
etc.
Read my signature too.

 

[JonC]

Thread is closed due to length. Please feel free to continue on a new thread.