Order of Salvation

[Barry Johnson]

I am not responsible for your problems.
The message is the same in every other version, so pick one you like.

26¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28¶And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. KJV

AND

And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. ( cannot be uttered) And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them( ??). For God knew his people in advance,( ??) and he chose them to become like his Son, ( ??)so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them ( ??) he called them to come to him.( ??) And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself.( ??) And having given them right standing(??), he gave them his glory(??). [Rom 8:26-30 NLT]
the differences are radical.

 

[AustinC]

I don't think there is an order to salvation since salvation is entirely of God and not of ourselves. All we can accurately say is "God saves by grace, through faith, which is not of ourselves but is a gift from God."

That's it. The process by which God graciously saves is for God to know and determine. I trust God's process.

We also know that God adopted, God chose and elected, and God predestined. These all answer God's Sovereignty in saving, but it doesn't tell us an order.

For me, I rest in the reality that all these matters are directed by God and for His glory. He shall do as He wills and that is fine with me.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I don't think there is an order to salvation since salvation is entirely of God and not of ourselves. All we can accurately say is "God saves by grace, through faith, which is not of ourselves but is a gift from God."

That's it. The process by which God graciously saves is for God to know and determine. I trust God's process.

We also know that God adopted, God chose and elected, and God predestined. These all answer God's Sovereignty in saving, but it doesn't tell us an order.

For me, I rest in the reality that all these matters are directed by God and for His glory. He shall do as He wills and that is fine with me.

Does the bible give us the order of salvation or not ? otherwise how have you concluded regeneration preceded faith ?

 

[MB]

Reader's digest "gift" in the Greek is in the neuter gender (neither male nor female) and in Greek grammar, the gender of "gift" must match the gender of the word it refers to. "grace", "saved" and "faith" are all either male or female. So no one of those words can be the "gift" in the original language. EVERYONE that read the original text would have instantly understood that fact. The only way for a gender neutral "gift" to work in that sentence is for the "gift" to be the whole thing that came before it ... male and female ... "by grace you have been saved through faith" = the whole thing is the "gift" and the whole thing is "not of yourself".

Whatever answer you come up with, if it fails to accept the "gift not of yourself" as the whole "by grace you have been saved through faith", then it is incorrect according to Ephesians 2.

Excuse me but in the Greek the word free is not there.
YLT
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,
In other words God is the Gift
Greens interlinear
For by Grace you are being saved through faith and this not of you of God is the Gift not of works lest anyone should boast.
Both are literal interpretations from the Greek.
MB

 

[Derf B]

The order of Salvation has always been faith first then we are saved. Yet some believe that they are saved first so they can believe. These verses below all state the true order of Salvation. There is no other way mentioned in scripture. Are those who believe they are saved first before they believe denying the real truth?
John 3:16, acts 16:31, Mark 16:16 Luke 7:50, Luke 18:42, Act 2:21 Romans 10;9, Romans 10:13

MB

Let’s assume for a moment that salvation precedes faith. That means that something outside your control has to happen before you do anything. But afterwards you must exercise that faith since you can’t help but do so.

Let’s now assume that faith comes before salvation. You must exercise your faith in order to be saved.

What do you do differently in the two scenarios? In both you are saved, and in both you exercise your faith.

Of what use is this conversation?


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[Barry Johnson]

Let’s assume for a moment that salvation precedes faith. That means that something outside your control has to happen before you do anything. But afterwards you must exercise that faith since you can’t help but do so.

Let’s now assume that faith comes before salvation. You must exercise your faith in order to be saved.

What do you do differently in the two scenarios? In both you are saved, and in both you exercise your faith.

Of what use is this conversation?


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The Gospel is the difference . Is believing God only causes belief in only those he has arbitrarily selected before they existed and reprobates the rest to hell or is God pleased to save those that believe? Not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

 

[atpollard]

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If it ( by grace are you saved through faith and not of yourself) really is the Gift, how should have Paul or the translators have put it ? And if Faith is the free gift why did Paul or the translators not write ' Faith is a free gift given to you so that you are able to believe, its not from yourselfs ,lest anyman should boast ?

Like I said, the grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "faith". The grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "grace". The grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "saved".

Do with that whatever you want.
Those that say only "faith" is the "gift" are just as wrong as those that say only "saved" or only "grace" is the "gift".

 

[MB]

Let’s assume for a moment that salvation precedes faith. That means that something outside your control has to happen before you do anything. But afterwards you must exercise that faith since you can’t help but do so.

I never assume something is truth, I check it out before I act

Let’s now assume that faith comes before salvation. You must exercise your faith in order to be saved.

Having the faith to believe in Christ is Having trust in Him if trust can be called exercise.

What do you do differently in the two scenarios? In both you are saved, and in both you exercise your faith.

There is nothing in the Bible that suggest that man is saved before faith. We can't possible trust what we do not know. This scenario is not known in scripture

Of what use is this conversation?


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Correction is the use. Believing falsely is serious business we need to be right.
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Like I said, the grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "faith". The grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "grace". The grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "saved".

Do with that whatever you want.
Those that say only "faith" is the "gift" are just as wrong as those that say only "saved" or only "grace" is the "gift".

Could you explain why the translators did not put ..Faith is the gift?

 

[atpollard]

Well we are not saved like Peter was . ' by faith and not by sight .

I disagree. Peter was saved by faith just as we are. All of the Pharisees saw and tried to stone Jesus.

[Matthew 16:16-17 NASB] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

[KJV] 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[NIV] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

[NLT] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.

** same basic message in all these translations.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I disagree. Peter was saved by faith just as we are. All of the Pharisees saw and tried to stone Jesus.

[Matthew 16:16-17 NASB] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

[KJV] 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[NIV] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

[NLT] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.

** same basic message in all these translations.

No-one is saved by anything other than by faith , but clearly Noah did not believe in the death burial and ressurection of Jesus for salvation. Peter also did not believe in the cross at that point either .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Like I said, the grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "faith". The grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "grace". The grammar will not allow the "gift" (that is not of yourself) to be ONLY "saved".

Do with that whatever you want.
Those that say only "faith" is the "gift" are just as wrong as those that say only "saved" or only "grace" is the "gift".

Even John Calvin interpreted the “gift” of this passage as “salvation,” and not faith This, of course, is in perfect harmony with Paul’s declaration elsewhere that the “gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23).

 

[Barry Johnson]

I disagree. Peter was saved by faith just as we are. All of the Pharisees saw and tried to stone Jesus.

[Matthew 16:16-17 NASB] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

[KJV] 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[NIV] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

[NLT] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.

** same basic message in all these translations.

We are not saved by simply believing that Jesus is the Messiah or even that He is the Son of the living God .
1 Corinthians 15:14-19
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[atpollard]

Excuse me but in the Greek the word free is not there.

I don't think that I used the word "free" in my post, so I am not quite sure how this applies.
Otherwise I agree with everything Young translated. I was just pointing out that the "gift" could not be just one of the things listed in the verse (grace, faith or saved) but likely referred to the entire clause "by grace you have been saved through faith".

 

[37818]

But only those with the Holy Spirit can hear God's word. The flesh cannot grasp it in truth.

Depends on what you mean by "with the Holy Spirit." Those who are in sanctifiation of the Spirit that hear and believe prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which only occures after faith. 2 Thessialonians 2:13-14, ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ." The perishing resist the sanctification of the Spirit, Hebrews 10:29, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

 

[atpollard]

Could you explain why the translators did not put ..Faith is the gift?

[Ephesians 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;

faith = πίστεως = female noun
gift = δῶρον = neuter noun

For Paul to have meant that faith is the gift, he would have used the feminine form of the noun "gift".
The translators did not put ..Faith is the gift ... because Paul did not write "Faith is the gift".

 

[atpollard]

Even John Calvin interpreted the “gift” of this passage as “salvation,” and not faith

I cannot speak to John Calvin, nor have I a reason to, but "saved" in Eph 2:8 is masculine while "gift" is still neuter, so "saved" all alone cannot be the gift according to the Greek grammar of the Apostle Paul.

... however, the masculine "saved" and the feminine "faith" TOGETHER would explain a neuter "gift".

 

[atpollard]

We are not saved by simply believing

You spend a lot of time telling me what is not ...

 

[37818]

We are are not saved by simply believing that Jesus is the Messiah or even that He is the Son of the living God .

That sounds like damnable heresy.

1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

1 John 5:4, ". . . For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. . . ."

Romans 1:4, ". . . declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: . . ."

1 Corinthians 15:3-4, ". . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . ."

The doctrine of Christ and being the Son of God are not mere titles but the identity of whom is being believed. 2 John 1:9.

 

[percho]

Unlike any of you I believe the following is the order of salvation. I also do not believe we apply it to ourselves, by believing it.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27,28

who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him all cause of salvation age-during,

Good luck on saving yourselves.