• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Order of Salvation

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
That is actually not true, and simply saying so proves nothing.
There is a point in the Signs in which Jesus did and the signs that followed the Apostles even though man cannot believe and respond without the gift of faith from a sovereign God.
(I would expound on that further, but since you felt statements require no explanation or support, neither will I provide any.) :)
Click to expand...
isnt it obvious? Signs usually point to something
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
MB said:
The whole point of scripture is that we might believe.
Click to expand...
Who are "WE"?
Not everyone believes. So I agree that the whole point of Preaching and Teaching and Evangelism and sharing the gospel with our neighbors and Scripture is to help BELIEVERS to 'believe' ... it is like seed scattered on a stony path or pearls cast before swine for the unbelievers.
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson said:
isnt it obvious? Signs usually point to something
Click to expand...
atpollard said:
That is actually not true, and simply saying so proves nothing.
There is a point in the Signs in which Jesus did and the signs that followed the Apostles even though man cannot believe and respond without the gift of faith from a sovereign God.
(I would expound on that further, but since you felt statements require no explanation or support, neither will I provide any.) :)
Click to expand...
I have ears to hear?
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Who are "WE"?
Not everyone believes. So I agree that the whole point of Preaching and Teaching and Evangelism and sharing the gospel with our neighbors and Scripture is to help BELIEVERS to 'believe' ... it is like seed scattered on a stony path or pearls cast before swine for the unbelievers.
Click to expand...
Help believers believe? Are you not supposed to be unconditionally elected before you existed ? whats the point if your already saved before you exist ?
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
InTheLight said:
If faith is a gift from God why did Jesus marvel at the faith of the Centurion? Why did he say he "found faith" in the Centurion if God gifts us with it? Why would Jesus marvel that someone had faith if He is the one that gave that faith to the person? Matthew 8: 5-13.
Click to expand...
A good question.

And if it is not a gift from God then how do we understand Ephesians 2 without doing injury to what is written?
I suspect that the ultimate answer comes from the parable of the mustard seed ... but I suck at parables and prophetic imagery.
I have enough trouble putting the pieces together when they talk plain (like when Paul tells me Abraham was not saved by his works and James tells me Abraham was saved by his works). This Christianity isn't for the faint at heart.
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Of course, fallen man can believe anything except the truth. At least that is the "God gives us faith to be saved" position.
(It also happens to be my position, but I am very familiar with the Wesleyan views and could hold up my end of defending Free Will debate if I had to.)
Click to expand...
I do not believe in Wesleyan theology . Why would it be that man can believe anything but truth ?
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
A good question.

And if it is not a gift from God then how do we understand Ephesians 2 without doing injury to what is written?
I suspect that the ultimate answer comes from the parable of the mustard seed ... but I suck at parables and prophetic imagery.
I have enough trouble putting the pieces together when they talk plain (like when Paul tells me Abraham was not saved by his works and James tells me Abraham was saved by his works). This Christianity isn't for the faint at heart.
Click to expand...
Could it be that faith is not the gift in ephesians 2 ,8 and 9 as all translations read ? I was genuinely shocked when I first understood how some read ephesians 2 this way .
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson said:
Help believers believe? Are you not supposed to be unconditionally elected before you existed ? whats the point if your already saved before you exist ?
Click to expand...
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. [Rom 8:26-30 NLT]
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
A good question.

And if it is not a gift from God then how do we understand Ephesians 2 without doing injury to what is written?
I suspect that the ultimate answer comes from the parable of the mustard seed ... but I suck at parables and prophetic imagery.
I have enough trouble putting the pieces together when they talk plain (like when Paul tells me Abraham was not saved by his works and James tells me Abraham was saved by his works). This Christianity isn't for the faint at heart.
Click to expand...
There is
atpollard said:
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. [Rom 8:26-30 NLT]
Click to expand...
I simply cannot accept the NLT . you might as well have quoted the NWT .
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson said:
Could it be that faith is not the gift in ephesians 2 ,8 and 9 as all translations read ? I was genuinely shocked when I first understood how some read ephesians 2 this way .
Click to expand...
Reader's digest "gift" in the Greek is in the neuter gender (neither male nor female) and in Greek grammar, the gender of "gift" must match the gender of the word it refers to. "grace", "saved" and "faith" are all either male or female. So no one of those words can be the "gift" in the original language. EVERYONE that read the original text would have instantly understood that fact. The only way for a gender neutral "gift" to work in that sentence is for the "gift" to be the whole thing that came before it ... male and female ... "by grace you have been saved through faith" = the whole thing is the "gift" and the whole thing is "not of yourself".

Whatever answer you come up with, if it fails to accept the "gift not of yourself" as the whole "by grace you have been saved through faith", then it is incorrect according to Ephesians 2.
 
B

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Reader's digest "gift" in the Greek is in the neuter gender (neither male nor female) and in Greek grammar, the gender of "gift" must match the gender of the word it refers to. "grace", "saved" and "faith" are all either male or female. So no one of those words can be the "gift" in the original language. EVERYONE that read the original text would have instantly understood that fact. The only way for a gender neutral "gift" to work in that sentence is for the "gift" to be the whole thing that came before it ... male and female ... "by grace you have been saved through faith" = the whole thing is the "gift" and the whole thing is "not of yourself".

Whatever answer you come up with, if it fails to accept the "gift not of yourself" as the whole "by grace you have been saved through faith", then it is incorrect according to Ephesians 2.
Click to expand...
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If it ( by grace are you saved through faith and not of yourself) really is the Gift, how should have Paul or the translators have put it ? And if Faith is the free gift why did Paul or the translators not write ' Faith is a free gift given to you so that you are able to believe, its not from yourselfs ,lest anyman should boast ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: MB
M

MB

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Who are "WE"?
Not everyone believes. So I agree that the whole point of Preaching and Teaching and Evangelism and sharing the gospel with our neighbors and Scripture is to help BELIEVERS to 'believe' ... it is like seed scattered on a stony path or pearls cast before swine for the unbelievers.
Click to expand...
I agree preaching is to help believers to believe even more. Yet it is also to convict the unbelievers and bring them to Christ. They can't believe with out someone to tell them the truth.
MB
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top