Order of Salvation

[Barry Johnson]

It seems to me that the real question is where does this “belief” come from?

Do you believe that ?

 

[InTheLight]

But only those with the Holy Spirit can hear God's word. The flesh cannot grasp it in truth.

The Gospel has the power to bring salvation to people that hear it.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

 

[Barry Johnson]

But only those with the Holy Spirit can hear God's word. The flesh cannot grasp it in truth.

literally hear ?

 

[MB]

"Faith" is such a big and complicated word. Do we have "faith"? When did it start? How much do we have? How much is enough faith? Can I loose it? Does God give it? Is it really my faith?

"Repent" is easier to understand. We can all remember being on our knees and seeking forgiveness from God. Those moments are burned into our memory like an Ebeneezer [stone of remembrance to mark an important event].

Funny how much we want to know if Faith came before Repentance or after ... as if it would change anything.

Let's talk about "SOMETHING". We will not call it "faith", because it might or might not be "faith" ... but it is "SOMETHING". This SOMETHING comes before we do anything. While Jesus was alive, the Father DREW disciples to Jesus and GAVE 'His sheep' to Jesus. Jesus Himself CHOSE His Apostles to come and follow Him. After the Crucifixion, Jesus says that He will DRAW all men to Himself. (I do not want to debate "everyone without exception" vs "some from every nation" in this topic.) So before or after the Crucifixion, there is a DRAW by God that must logically come before any act on our part. This DRAW is that "SOMETHING" that I want to point out.

We see this SOMETHING at work in Acts.
In Acts 2 we see God DRAW a crowd and begin to do SOMETHING to some of them and not to others ...

• 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.”

After this, we see Peter deliver the words from God under the anointing of the Holy Spirit (sorry if my Pentecostal roots are showing) ...

• 14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them:

There can be little doubt to any Christian that the Word of God has power. As Scripture says, God's words do not return void but accomplish their purpose (as an aside, I was always impressed how the same word makes a ready heart more ready and a hard heart even harder). Even here, God seems to have done SOMETHING in their heart during the hearing and before any action on their part. I personally believe that this is the work of the Holy Spirit; to do SOMETHING to DRAW us to Christ ...

• 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”

Only after God has done His SOMETHING, do we see Peter commanding the people what they must do ...

• 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

In Acts 16, SOMETHING happened in the heart of Lydia and in the heart of the Jailer ...

• 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.
  
• 29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

What then is the role of this often seen (and personally experienced) SOMETHING that seems to precede the call for us to do anything?

I for one before I was saved resisted very hard the drawing when we went to church every Sunday. In my heart I believed Christians were a bunch of hypocrites. Just as in Rom 3:10-20 Just like the passage says I believed they were putting on a show. Certainly no one seeks God. As far as I was concerned everyone in the church fit the description of this passage. Is it just me or is this passage a description of what the lost see in Christianity. And is why I think they resist.

The answer to your question is in the story of the sower. The power in the word of God is a very interesting thing. As I have already mentioned I was made to memorize scripture. Once it got inside of me it began to grow. Through the Holy Spirit it worked on both my conscience and my heart. Then one day I heard a sermon that interested me. It convicted me to my core and the reason I listened was because it was about what I hated most about Christians. I believed they were all Hypocrites. I had no Idea that it would make me see myself as the bigger hypocrite. What happened then was I was hurt in a way like never before Then I knew I had to surrender to Christ.

We can't make anyone a Christian but God can All we can do is plant the seed.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

literally hear ?

“To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach: they have no delight in it.” Jeremiah 6:10 (NCPB)

 

[Barry Johnson]

“To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach: they have no delight in it.” Jeremiah 6:10 (NCPB)

Do you literally hear Jesus speaking to you audibly?

 

[1689Dave]

Do you literally hear Jesus speaking to you audibly?

God speaks only through his word.

 

[Barry Johnson]

God speaks only through his word.

Exactly ..And many have read and understood and been saved by doing so .
Otherwise your saying man can believe the Quran but not the bible.

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe that ?

That is the "heart" of the disagreement (if you will permit a pun).

• Some believe that the fall of Adam has rendered man unwilling/incapable of choosing God ... fallen man is "spiritually dead" and incapable self-generated belief; therefore "faith" is a gift from God to those that God has chosen to save in spite of themselves.
• Others believe that people can self-generate belief, typically because of the Cross or some act of universal grace/drawing or because that aspect of the "image of God" in man was not destroyed.

Both cannot be correct. Either people are the ultimate source of their belief, or they are not (and God is). Whichever source of belief is true, that determines which assumptions are correct.

Look at John 3:16 for example:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." [John 3:16 NASB]​

If belief comes from people because people can self-generate belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to all men and will be crossed by those men that self-generate belief.

If belief comes from God because people are incapable of self-generated belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to and will be crossed by those men in whom God creates belief.

Those are two very different meanings, and each follows from the answer to the question "Where does this 'belief' come from?" so yes, it seems to me that the real question is where does this “belief” come from?

 

[Barry Johnson]

That is the "heart" of the disagreement (if you will permit a pun).

• Some believe that the fall of Adam has rendered man unwilling/incapable of choosing God ... fallen man is "spiritually dead" and incapable self-generated belief; therefore "faith" is a gift from God to those that God has chosen to save in spite of themselves.
• Others believe that people can self-generate belief, typically because of the Cross or some act of universal grace/drawing or because that aspect of the "image of God" in man was not destroyed.

Both cannot be correct. Either people are the ultimate source of their belief, or they are not (and God is). Whichever source of belief is true, that determines which assumptions are correct.

Look at John 3:16 for example:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." [John 3:16 NASB]​

If belief comes from people because people can self-generate belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to all men and will be crossed by those men that self-generate belief.

If belief comes from God because people are incapable of self-generated belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to and will be crossed by those men in whom God creates belief.

Those are two very different meanings, and each follows from the answer to the question "Where does this 'belief' come from?" so yes, it seems to me that the real question is where does this “belief” come from?

Would you agree that man can believe in the Quran for example?

 

[Barry Johnson]

That is the "heart" of the disagreement (if you will permit a pun).

• Some believe that the fall of Adam has rendered man unwilling/incapable of choosing God ... fallen man is "spiritually dead" and incapable self-generated belief; therefore "faith" is a gift from God to those that God has chosen to save in spite of themselves.
• Others believe that people can self-generate belief, typically because of the Cross or some act of universal grace/drawing or because that aspect of the "image of God" in man was not destroyed.

Both cannot be correct. Either people are the ultimate source of their belief, or they are not (and God is). Whichever source of belief is true, that determines which assumptions are correct.

Look at John 3:16 for example:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." [John 3:16 NASB]​

If belief comes from people because people can self-generate belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to all men and will be crossed by those men that self-generate belief.

If belief comes from God because people are incapable of self-generated belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to and will be crossed by those men in whom God creates belief.

Those are two very different meanings, and each follows from the answer to the question "Where does this 'belief' come from?" so yes, it seems to me that the real question is where does this “belief” come from?

There would be no point in the Signs in which Jesus did or the signs the followed the Apostles if man cannot believe and respond positively .

 

[Barry Johnson]

That is the "heart" of the disagreement (if you will permit a pun).

• Some believe that the fall of Adam has rendered man unwilling/incapable of choosing God ... fallen man is "spiritually dead" and incapable self-generated belief; therefore "faith" is a gift from God to those that God has chosen to save in spite of themselves.
• Others believe that people can self-generate belief, typically because of the Cross or some act of universal grace/drawing or because that aspect of the "image of God" in man was not destroyed.

Both cannot be correct. Either people are the ultimate source of their belief, or they are not (and God is). Whichever source of belief is true, that determines which assumptions are correct.

Look at John 3:16 for example:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." [John 3:16 NASB]​

If belief comes from people because people can self-generate belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to all men and will be crossed by those men that self-generate belief.

If belief comes from God because people are incapable of self-generated belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to and will be crossed by those men in whom God creates belief.

Those are two very different meanings, and each follows from the answer to the question "Where does this 'belief' come from?" so yes, it seems to me that the real question is where does this “belief” come from?

And of course they believed in God before the cross .

 

[MB]

Not literally everyone but people from all nations and tribes and to



I believe that man is at the mercy of God. Meaning- until God does something, man can do nothing

Maybe what you don't realize is God already has done something and He gave us His Word. Once the word get's inside Like the seed does in the earth it can grow. God was there encouraging me to memorize scripture before I was saved because He knew eventually I would believe.
MB

 

[MB]

There would be no point in the Signs in which Jesus did or the signs the followed the Apostles if man cannot believe and respond positively .

A-men The whole point of scripture is that we might believe.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Exactly ..And many have read and understood and been saved by doing so .
Otherwise your saying man can believe the Quran but not the bible.

Why did Peter recognize Christ and the Pharisees did not?
“He saith unto them, ‘But whom say ye that I am?’ And Simon Peter answered and said, ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God’. And Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (NCPB)

 

[MB]

[QUOTE="atpollard, post: 2621036, member: 14000"

What then is the role of this often seen (and personally experienced) SOMETHING that seems to precede the call for us to do anything?[/QUOTE]
I believe it's the Holy Spirit working to convince us to trust in Christ
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Why did Peter recognize Christ and the Pharisees did not?
“He saith unto them, ‘But whom say ye that I am?’ And Simon Peter answered and said, ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God’. And Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (NCPB)

Why do you compare yourself to Peter ? Jesus physically revealed himself to Peter . Why not compare yourself to moses ? how about Abraham ? Noah ? The normative way of salvation comes after the cross for today. 1 cor 15 ,1-4 .

 

[InTheLight]

If belief comes from people because people can self-generate belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to all men and will be crossed by those men that self-generate belief.

If belief comes from God because people are incapable of self-generated belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to and will be crossed by those men in whom God creates belief.

Those are two very different meanings, and each follows from the answer to the question "Where does this 'belief' come from?" so yes, it seems to me that the real question is where does this “belief” come from?

If faith is a gift from God why did Jesus marvel at the faith of the Centurion? Why did he say he "found faith" in the Centurion if God gifts us with it? Why would Jesus marvel that someone had faith if He is the one that gave that faith to the person? Matthew 8: 5-13.

 

[atpollard]

Would you agree that man can believe in the Quran for example?

Of course, fallen man can believe anything except the truth. At least that is the "God gives us faith to be saved" position.
(It also happens to be my position, but I am very familiar with the Wesleyan views and could hold up my end of defending Free Will debate if I had to.)

 

[atpollard]

There would be no point in the Signs in which Jesus did or the signs the followed the Apostles if man cannot believe and respond positively .

That is actually not true, and simply saying so proves nothing.
There is a point in the Signs in which Jesus did and the signs that followed the Apostles even though man cannot believe and respond without the gift of faith from a sovereign God.
(I would expound on that further, but since you felt statements require no explanation or support, neither will I provide any.)