Order of Salvation

[atpollard]

The order of Salvation has always been faith first then we are saved.

Reading through this thread, we should probably define "saved" as it is used in the verses we are tossing about. What are we saved from?

I only bring this up because if we are "saved" from physical death and judgement in the afterlife, then a LOT of things come before our physical death and afterlife. If we are "saved" from something else, then "saved" may come sooner in this logical order.

 

[1689Dave]

The order of Salvation has always been faith first then we are saved. Yet some believe that they are saved first so they can believe. These verses below all state the true order of Salvation. There is no other way mentioned in scripture. Are those who believe they are saved first before they believe denying the real truth?
John 3:16, acts 16:31, Mark 16:16 Luke 7:50, Luke 18:42, Act 2:21 Romans 10;9, Romans 10:13

MB

But, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You have it exactly backward.

 

[Marooncat79]

It is better translated the believing ones or those who are believing

 

[Marooncat79]

Biblically Stolen from the Internet

It seems that John 3:16 is being used to promote the idea that anyone, anywhere can believe in Christ, if they choose, hence 'whosoever believes.' However, there is no Greek counterpart/equivalent for the English term ‘whosoever’ -- none, nada, zero – does not exist! In fact, the author didn’t use ‘whosoever’ or any other variations of this English word anywhere in this text. Some translations say ‘whoever’ instead of the traditional ‘whosoever.’ Might I add, that even the term ‘whoever’ (Greek: ‘hos an’), which is used in Romans 10:13, was not used by the author in John 3:16. The term ‘whoever’ translates from the Greek ‘hos an,’ but what we have here in John 3:16 isn’t ‘hos an,’ rather, ‘pas ho pisteuoon.’ ‘Pas ho’ literally means ‘all the,’ or ‘every the.’ ‘Pisteuoon’ (a form of ‘pisteuo’) means ‘believing.’ Given that, the text actually says, ‘all the believing ones,’ not 'whosoever.' Or as the NETBible translates it, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."



With that being said, the term ‘whosoever’ is a 13th century English possessive pronoun, which the KJV uses, and never meant ‘whoever wills’ as it means in today’s modern English (‘whoever wants to come to the picnic, can come’). Rather, the term ‘whosoever’ refers to certain qualities/traits of a group, or of a certain individual. For example, ‘whoever possesses these traits will be hired’ or ‘whoever has green skin will get a free car.’ Not ‘whosoever wills to have green skin will get a free car.’

 

[MB]

Reading through this thread, we should probably define "saved" as it is used in the verses we are tossing about. What are we saved from?

I only bring this up because if we are "saved" from physical death and judgement in the afterlife, then a LOT of things come before our physical death and afterlife. If we are "saved" from something else, then "saved" may come sooner in this logical order.

Can you show this with scripture alone?. I may not be as educated as you but I have studied scripture ever since I first learned to read. One thing I know for certain is that there is no reason to assume that Salvation comes before faith. I know Calvinism believes that it has to come before faith because they believe that man is unable to understand before regeneration. Regeneration is Salvation. An inability as described by Calvinist is not possible. Because a measure of faith has been given to every living soul. Not to mention the whole reason Christ spoke in parables was to keep people from understanding and being saved. For His reasons what ever they were.

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

So if men were indeed unable to understand. Why would Christ say what He said in Luke 8:10? I do not believe in any inabilities and there fore I believe men can hear and understand or Christ would not had have to speak to men in parables.
MB

 

[Marooncat79]

• "for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during."

This is correct and it is NOT WHOSOEVER!! this is how the verse actually reads or at least a better reading

Again, you have posted correctly here, but do not understand what you read

It easily means those who are believing in him (and only those who are believing). Emphasis added

Hence John 3:16 actually teaches limited atonement

 

[MB]

Biblically Stolen from the Internet

It seems that John 3:16 is being used to promote the idea that anyone, anywhere can believe in Christ, if they choose, hence 'whosoever believes.' However, there is no Greek counterpart/equivalent for the English term ‘whosoever’ -- none, nada, zero – does not exist! In fact, the author didn’t use ‘whosoever’ or any other variations of this English word anywhere in this text. Some translations say ‘whoever’ instead of the traditional ‘whosoever.’ Might I add, that even the term ‘whoever’ (Greek: ‘hos an’), which is used in Romans 10:13, was not used by the author in John 3:16. The term ‘whoever’ translates from the Greek ‘hos an,’ but what we have here in John 3:16 isn’t ‘hos an,’ rather, ‘pas ho pisteuoon.’ ‘Pas ho’ literally means ‘all the,’ or ‘every the.’ ‘Pisteuoon’ (a form of ‘pisteuo’) means ‘believing.’ Given that, the text actually says, ‘all the believing ones,’ not 'whosoever.' Or as the NETBible translates it, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."



With that being said, the term ‘whosoever’ is a 13th century English possessive pronoun, which the KJV uses, and never meant ‘whoever wills’ as it means in today’s modern English (‘whoever wants to come to the picnic, can come’). Rather, the term ‘whosoever’ refers to certain qualities/traits of a group, or of a certain individual. For example, ‘whoever possesses these traits will be hired’ or ‘whoever has green skin will get a free car.’ Not ‘whosoever wills to have green skin will get a free car.’

"whosoever" was translated from "everyone" in Greek. They both mean the same thing. So your explanation makes no sense.
MB

 

[Marooncat79]

described by Calvinist is not possible. Because a measure of faith has been given to every living soul.

Not really. The measure of faith is given to the elect only. He has given to US (believers) the measure of faith NOT all men

 

[Marooncat79]

"whosoever" was translated from "everyone" in Greek. They both mean the same thing. So your explanation makes no sense.
MB

No they do not.

It appeals to only the believing ones

The whosoever is irrelevant since its not in Greek as previously proven

 

[Van]

On and on the same Calvinists post the same copy and paste screed.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth. I am still waiting to find out how they God chose folks for salvation on the basis of faith before the folks had faith.

 

[atpollard]

So if men were indeed unable to understand. Why would Christ say what He said in Luke 8:10? I do not believe in any inabilities and there fore I believe men can hear and understand or Christ would not had have to speak to men in parables.

Since we (modern Christians) do not share the Gospel in parables, why is EVERYONE that hears it not a saved believer?

Jesus also said:

• "Stop complaining about what I said. For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me ..." [John 6:43-44 NLT]
• "I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father's name. But you don't believe me because you are not my sheep." [John 10:25-26 NLT]

And the Apostles said:

• "When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means." [1 Corinthians 2:13-14 NLT]
  
• "If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God." [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NLT]

So some men are indeed unable to understand, and others are able to understand. The key is to search scripture and be convinced in your heart about what made the difference. I can tell you what I think makes the difference, but I cannot tell you what you should believe. That is a matter between your heart and your Creator.

God Bless.

 

[MB]

described by Calvinist is not possible. Because a measure of faith has been given to every living soul.

Not really. The measure of faith is given to the elect only. He has given to US (believers) the measure of faith NOT all men

The whole reason I believe in Christ is God's Word. Everything in Salvation boils down to God's word. Everything about Christ comes from it. Everything about Salvation comes from it.
The underlined above is extra biblical. Added by men and is not scriptural. The Bible says every man has been given a measure of faith. There is no election involved.
MB

 

[37818]

Nope. Guess again and its not repentance

Biblical repentance precedes faith, Mark 1:15.

 

[InTheLight]

• "for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during."

This is correct and it is NOT WHOSOEVER!! this is how the verse actually reads or at least a better reading

Again, you have posted correctly here, but do not understand what you read

It easily means those who are believing in him (and only those who are believing). Emphasis added

Hence John 3:16 actually teaches limited atonement

List of faulty arguments used by Calvinists
#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE

 

[37818]

Hint

Repentance and Faith are Grace gifts given by God AT THE SAME TIME, so that man can respond to the Gospel

Repentance is indeed a gift where faith is the result, 2 Timothy 2;25, ". . . if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; . . ." So faith precedes regeneration, salvationn.

 

[37818]

But, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You have it exactly backward.

Faith is a result of hearing God's word (John 17:17), as in Romans 10:17. But some resist the Holy Spirit, Acts 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.

Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Where faith as the fruit is not the faith that precedes salvation.

 

[Marooncat79]

Biblical repentance precedes faith, Mark 1:15.

So we have some saying that faith ALWAYS precedes Repentance, EXCEPT for when it DOES NOT IN Mark 1:15 where Repentance PRECEDES faith

Maybe they precede each other everytime?

I know!! I know!!

Maybe, just maybe? They are sometimes listed together and just because one has to be listed first, they chose faith?

Can we go w that?

I was actually not going to address this one, but found it too ..........?

 

[atpollard]

This is correct and it is NOT WHOSOEVER!! this is how the verse actually reads or at least a better reading

You should have been clearer in your original post. To simply state "Whosoever is not in the greek" implies that John 3:16 should read "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." All translators agreed that SOME word belonged there. "Whosoever" or whoever" or "everyone" or "every one who".

Again, you have posted correctly here, but do not understand what you read

You assume much about me that is incorrect. I am familiar with the meaning of "whosoever" in old English.

It easily means those who are believing in him (and only those who are believing). Emphasis added

Hence John 3:16 actually teaches limited atonement

While John 3:16 does not prove Unlimited Atonement, as some suggest, you overstate your case with your emphasis of John 3:16 teaching Limited Atonement. Would it be untrue that "those who are believing in him shall not perish, but have eternal life" if Jesus died for every person without exception in an act of prevenient grace that still requires 'Free Will' belief by the hearer of the Gospel?

As a 5 point Particular Baptist, I do not believe that to be the case. However as a Christian, I support intellectual honesty in discussions, so I acknowledge that John 3:16 really only states that "believers" shall have "eternal life" ... which is true for Limited and Unlimited (Particular and Universal) Atonement.

 

[atpollard]

List of faulty arguments used by Calvinists
#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE

I am not sure that even qualifies in this case.

• whosover believeth
• whoever believes
• everyone that believes
• every one that is believing

All seem to say the same thing to me ... "da guy what gets it, capisce?"

 

[37818]

So we have some saying that faith ALWAYS precedes Repentance . . . .

Nowhere taught in the word God in order to be saved. Which is a faith plus works plan of salvation like the Churches of Christ cults and Mormonism.