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Featured Order of Salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MB, Jul 30, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe that ?
     
    #61 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The Gospel has the power to bring salvation to people that hear it.

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16
     
    #62 InTheLight, Jul 31, 2020
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  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    literally hear ?
     
    #63 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
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  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I for one before I was saved resisted very hard the drawing when we went to church every Sunday. In my heart I believed Christians were a bunch of hypocrites. Just as in Rom 3:10-20 Just like the passage says I believed they were putting on a show. Certainly no one seeks God. As far as I was concerned everyone in the church fit the description of this passage. Is it just me or is this passage a description of what the lost see in Christianity. And is why I think they resist.

    The answer to your question is in the story of the sower. The power in the word of God is a very interesting thing. As I have already mentioned I was made to memorize scripture. Once it got inside of me it began to grow. Through the Holy Spirit it worked on both my conscience and my heart. Then one day I heard a sermon that interested me. It convicted me to my core and the reason I listened was because it was about what I hated most about Christians. I believed they were all Hypocrites. I had no Idea that it would make me see myself as the bigger hypocrite. What happened then was I was hurt in a way like never before Then I knew I had to surrender to Christ.

    We can't make anyone a Christian but God can All we can do is plant the seed.
    MB
     
    #64 MB, Jul 31, 2020
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  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach: they have no delight in it.” Jeremiah 6:10 (NCPB)
     
    #65 1689Dave, Jul 31, 2020
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  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Do you literally hear Jesus speaking to you audibly?
     
    #66 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    God speaks only through his word.
     
    #67 1689Dave, Jul 31, 2020
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  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Exactly ..And many have read and understood and been saved by doing so .
    Otherwise your saying man can believe the Quran but not the bible.
     
    #68 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That is the "heart" of the disagreement (if you will permit a pun).
    • Some believe that the fall of Adam has rendered man unwilling/incapable of choosing God ... fallen man is "spiritually dead" and incapable self-generated belief; therefore "faith" is a gift from God to those that God has chosen to save in spite of themselves.
    • Others believe that people can self-generate belief, typically because of the Cross or some act of universal grace/drawing or because that aspect of the "image of God" in man was not destroyed.
    Both cannot be correct. Either people are the ultimate source of their belief, or they are not (and God is). Whichever source of belief is true, that determines which assumptions are correct.

    Look at John 3:16 for example:
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." [John 3:16 NASB]​

    If belief comes from people because people can self-generate belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to all men and will be crossed by those men that self-generate belief.

    If belief comes from God because people are incapable of self-generated belief, then John 3:16 means that God sent Jesus to create a path leading to eternal life that is open to and will be crossed by those men in whom God creates belief.

    Those are two very different meanings, and each follows from the answer to the question "Where does this 'belief' come from?" so yes, it seems to me that the real question is where does this “belief” come from?
     
    #69 atpollard, Jul 31, 2020
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  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Would you agree that man can believe in the Quran for example?
     
    #70 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    There would be no point in the Signs in which Jesus did or the signs the followed the Apostles if man cannot believe and respond positively .
     
    #71 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
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  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    And of course they believed in God before the cross .
     
    #72 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Maybe what you don't realize is God already has done something and He gave us His Word. Once the word get's inside Like the seed does in the earth it can grow. God was there encouraging me to memorize scripture before I was saved because He knew eventually I would believe.
    MB
     
    #73 MB, Jul 31, 2020
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    A-men The whole point of scripture is that we might believe.
    MB
     
    #74 MB, Jul 31, 2020
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  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Why did Peter recognize Christ and the Pharisees did not?
    “He saith unto them, ‘But whom say ye that I am?’ And Simon Peter answered and said, ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God’. And Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (NCPB)
     
    #75 1689Dave, Jul 31, 2020
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="atpollard, post: 2621036, member: 14000"

    What then is the role of this often seen (and personally experienced) SOMETHING that seems to precede the call for us to do anything?[/QUOTE]
    I believe it's the Holy Spirit working to convince us to trust in Christ
    MB
     
    #76 MB, Jul 31, 2020
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  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Why do you compare yourself to Peter ? Jesus physically revealed himself to Peter . Why not compare yourself to moses ? how about Abraham ? Noah ? The normative way of salvation comes after the cross for today. 1 cor 15 ,1-4 .
     
    #77 Barry Johnson, Jul 31, 2020
  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    If faith is a gift from God why did Jesus marvel at the faith of the Centurion? Why did he say he "found faith" in the Centurion if God gifts us with it? Why would Jesus marvel that someone had faith if He is the one that gave that faith to the person? Matthew 8: 5-13.
     
    #78 InTheLight, Jul 31, 2020
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  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Of course, fallen man can believe anything except the truth. At least that is the "God gives us faith to be saved" position.
    (It also happens to be my position, but I am very familiar with the Wesleyan views and could hold up my end of defending Free Will debate if I had to.)
     
    #79 atpollard, Jul 31, 2020
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  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That is actually not true, and simply saying so proves nothing.
    There is a point in the Signs in which Jesus did and the signs that followed the Apostles even though man cannot believe and respond without the gift of faith from a sovereign God.
    (I would expound on that further, but since you felt statements require no explanation or support, neither will I provide any.) :)
     
    #80 atpollard, Jul 31, 2020
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