the nature of man desired to obey God and please Him, but after the fall, changed to pleasing ourselves and disobeying God!
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Original Sin Again
- Thread starter rsr
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That is not what Scripture testifies of Adam.
That is why there was the Fall.
Because Adam disobeyed.
God bless.
Obviously man's will was to meet his own desires instead, as evidenced by Adam's sin.
All of us were condemned along with Adam in the fall to now have the sin natures, and to be born in a state of rebellion against God...Hey Iconoclast,
I think that you’ve adapted to my intentional stubbornness, or at least learned to ignore it. Even @rsr surprised me by quickly resulting to personal insults, but you have remained brotherly despite our disagreements. I regret our misunderstanding a few years ago as I think I'd have enjoyed knowing you better. Anyway, I appreciate your willingness to discuss the topic in a civil manner.
The aorist itself does not imply a timelessness as transporting “us to the point of time when the results of human life appears as a completed fact”. That is simply not implied by the grammar (although it is a philosophical conclusion some apparently make).
And, on a side note, are you referring to George MacDonald (universal salvation)?
I agree with Leon Morris in the quote you have provided. Paul is telling us not only that all men (in the passage, regardless of the Law – Greek and Jew) sin but also that all men will sin. It is a principle of our nature.
Here is where I believe we agree:
Adam sinned and as a result of that sin the eyes of man was opened to the knowledge of good and evil. Through Adam’s transgression sin and death entered the world and death spread to all men because all have sinned.
Here is where I believe we disagree:
I do not think that Adam had a pre-fall nature and a post-fall nature. Instead I believe that Adam was created by God but was not a "sinner" until he sinned. I believe that we sin when we are carried away by our own desires (the desires of the flesh). So sin is not our nature itself (the flesh) but our weakness to our natures (our will).
Here is what I am arguing:
I am not arguing against the idea we all inherit the same “sin nature” from Adam. I am essentially arguing two points:
1. Our nature in and of itself, apart from a sinful action, provides the desire but does not constitute sin. (i.e., I am arguing James 1:12-14 applies to mankind as a whole).
2. James 1:12-14 applied to Adam as a person.
Adam did not seek to obey God before he fell?
And that is all of our condition/state after the fall, save for Jesus, who bypassed being corrupted in His humanity via the Virgin Birth!
All that matters is that...Adam sinned.
That shows that it was within his nature, just as it is within our own.
What Adam did have that we are not created unto is direct, face to face communion with God, and access to the Tree of Life. Death has come upon all men specifically because Adam was thrust out of the Garden:
Genesis 3:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
God bless.
I take it that's a "no".
He also had before the fall a created nature that was sinless in the sense that was morally perfect...
Its simply not possible for him to have a "sinless nature" when the entirety of the Bible revolves over the fact that he sinned.
Only God is sinless. That is proved in both the case of Man and Angels. Created beings are after all created beings. Only by the immersion of a created being into God do we see the hope for separation from the penalty, pollution, and presence of sin, and this in the eternal state when we receive that body we groan for.
God bless.
You do understand that there is absolutely no (zero) passages of Scripture supporting this hypothesis, right?
jesus was conxceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, and that allowed him to bypass being affected by the fall of Adam....
ALL of us are born as sinners, so are you saying jesus was born with same nature as that also?
I understand your pseudo-scientific/pseudo-religious philosophy here. I suppose that is why so many object to genetic experimentation (either isolate the "sin gene", alter the DNA, or perhaps clone a man and you've created a man you'd worship as sinless).
My point is that the idea is platonic philosophy and not Scripture. The BIBLE does not say that Jesus' conception allowed him to bypass being affected by the fall of Adam. In fact, Scripture states the opposite (that Jesus shared in our infirmity, our humanity, and our "flesh".
Now this raises an interesting point of discussion.
Would we not consider the fact that the flesh the Son of man took upon Himself was not "conceived," but created by God in the womb of Mary, much like God took of the elements of the earth and created Adam's flesh. Secondly, our proclivity towards sin has, as you are pointing out in excellent fashion, nothing to do with a biologically based impetus, but deals primarily with the "thoughts and intents" of the heart, or in other words, is related to our spirit and how we look at things.
That being said, we again go back to the point I made originally, which is that Christ was God manifest in the flesh, therefore incapable, even though having taken on flesh (which holds its own element of importance in regards to sin), of committing sin, though tempted.
And we look at the impact of the flesh on sin. I have often told people, if you do not feel your flesh has control over you...try fasting. And you will soon see how quickly the flesh seeks to drive your actions. Lust is another issue. But would we really conceive of the Son of God...lusting after a woman? Contemplating stealing food because he was hungry? And any other number of scenarios we could create to point out the nature of the flesh in regards to sin?
Just thinking out loud here, and enjoying this discussion immensely. It is helping me out tremendously.
God bless.
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IF Jesus was not Virgin birthed, conceived by the Holy Spirit within Mary, then he would have been under the fall, a sinner, and not able to save us!
If Jesus was not born with our human nature then He would not qualify to be our High Priest.
when Adan fell, all afterwards, save Jesus, would be experiencing having the sin nature in them now!
Jesus was born in the same human flesh as all of us, save NOT born with a sin nature....But a perfect and Holy human nature!
He was born with the same Humanity as Adam was created with, being morally perfect and sinless, so was Human, without a sin nature!IF jesus was born with same nature we all have, he would not qualify to be a Messiah!
If having the ability to sin or not having the ability to sin is the sin nature, then Adam had it.
That's not entirely accurate: we are all born to a human father, He was not. Neither any man or Mary contributed to the body which was created in Mary.
He was perfect and Holy, despite being veiled in human flesh.
Again, you continue to make assertions apart from a Scriptural support. Do you think people are just going to take your word for it that you are correct in your assertions? They won't. You need to include Scripture to support your assertions.
God bless.
The persons rejected our viewpoints are those whose concept of the sin nature/original Sin/the fall deviate from what the scriptures state to us...
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