Original Sin Again

[Darrell C]

The persons rejected our viewpoints are those whose concept of the sin nature/original Sin/the fall deviate from what the scriptures state to us...

But you give no reason for anyone to think what you say is based on the Bible, brother. That is why I keep exhorting you to begin presenting Scriptural Basis for your assertions.

No-one wants to hear opinions, they want to know what Scripture teaches.


God bless.

 

[JonC]

Now this raises an interesting point of discussion.

Would we not consider the fact that the flesh the Son of man took upon Himself was not "conceived," but created by God in the womb of Mary, much like God took of the elements of the earth and created Adam's flesh. Secondly, our proclivity towards sin has, as you are pointing out in excellent fashion, nothing to do with a biologically based impetus, but deals primarily with the "thoughts and intents" of the heart, or in other words, is related to our spirit and how we look at things.

That being said, we again go back to the point I made originally, which is that Christ was God manifest in the flesh, therefore incapable, even though having taken on flesh (which holds its own element of importance in regards to sin), of committing sin, though tempted.




And we look at the impact of the flesh on sin. I have often told people, if you do not feel your flesh has control over you...try fasting. And you will soon see how quickly the flesh seeks to drive your actions. Lust is another issue. But would we really conceive of the Son of God...lusting after a woman? Contemplating stealing food because he was hungry? And any other number of scenarios we could create to point out the nature of the flesh in regards to sin?

Just thinking out loud here, and enjoying this discussion immensely. It is helping me out tremendously.


God bless.

I love the example of hunger. Satisfying hunger is a desire. Christ experienced this desire (I believe) in the wilderness. This wasn't a sin. Had Christ placed his desire to eat over God's will then it would have been a sin.

I believe Christ had the same natural desires as is common to all. Desiring a mate is a natural desire. Lusting after a woman is not.

 

[Darrell C]

I love the example of hunger. Satisfying hunger is a desire. Christ experienced this desire (I believe) in the wilderness. This wasn't a sin. Had Christ placed his desire to eat over God's will then it would have been a sin.

And that is a great example: Christ was hungered yet it in no way led to his yielding to it, that it affect His Ministry.

I believe Christ had the same natural desires as is common to all. Desiring a mate is a natural desire. Lusting after a woman is not.

I see the Lord more like Sherlock Holmes, who said "women are not entirely to be trusted," lol. Christ, knowing what was in man (and woman), would certainly have known better...




God bless.

 

[JonC]

And that is a great example: Christ was hungered yet it in no way led to his yielding to it, that it affect His Ministry.




I see the Lord more like Sherlock Holmes, who said "women are not entirely to be trusted, lol. Christ, knowing what was in man (and woman), would certainly have known better...




God bless.

Or He had Proverbs 27:15 in mind

 

[Darrell C]

I see the Lord more like Sherlock Holmes, who said "women are not entirely to be trusted," lol. Christ, knowing what was in man (and woman), would certainly have known better...

I would like to just clarify this is given in humor only. I trust my wife explicitly and do not doubt her integrity in the least, and count myself as blessed of God to have her as my wife. I often ask her what she did that caused the Lord to give her me...

Incidentally, I don't think Sherlock Holmes ever said what I quoted above in the books, only in a movie, which was loosely based on the character. While he didn't have an interest in having a relationship with women (because he was devoted to intellectual pursuits), he did have an admiration for one exceptional woman, Irene Adler, who pulled the wool over his eyes, thus gaining his respect.


God bless.

 

[JonC]

Another issue is that Jesus had to struggle or suffer between the flesh and spirit and overcome. The idea Jesus was faux human denies this possibility.

 

[percho]

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

How was God going to accomplish, that in bold, had that underlined, not taken place.?

 

[TCassidy]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

The illustration I use is this:

My father was not born in the US and was not a US citizen. He CHOSE to leave his homeland and immigrate to a new land, the US.

Because of his immigrating, I was born in the United States, and am thus a US citizen. I am not in any way responsible for his deciding to come to the US, but it certainly has affected me in that I am now a citizen of the country he immigrated to, and not a citizen of the country he left.

So also Adam. He left his original homeland and went to another place. As he was now a resident of that other place, his children were born in that state. We are born in the state of sin, Adam's new home. We are not responsible in any way for Adam's sin, but we are nevertheless affected by his changing states, making us now citizens of that new state, the state of sin.

 

[JonC]

The illustration I use is this:

My father was not born in the US and was not a US citizen. He CHOSE to leave his homeland and immigrate to a new land, the US.

Because of his immigrating, I was born in the United States, and am thus a US citizen. I am not in any way responsible for his deciding to come to the US, but it certainly has affected me in that I am now a citizen of the country he immigrated to, and not a citizen of the country he left.

So also Adam. He left his original homeland and went to another place. As he was now a resident of that other place, his children were born in that state. We are born in the state of sin, Adam's new home. We are not responsible in any way for Adam's sin, but we are nevertheless affected by his changing states, making us now citizens of that new state, the state of sin.

I can agree with this (it's relational, not ontological). We are born in a state removed from the intimate presence Adam enjoyed with God in the Garden. Yet we share the exact same nature that Adam had from the beginning. The issue being Adam's choice, his will. And we do the same thing when tempted with the desires of the flesh.

 

[Darrell C]

Another issue is that Jesus had to struggle or suffer between the flesh and spirit and overcome. The idea Jesus was faux human denies this possibility.

An interesting issue.

Here's a verse to stir up discussion:


2 Corinthians 1
King James Version (KJV)

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.


What "sufferings" of Christ would we think he is speaking about?

Here it would seem that persecution based on doctrine is in view. Yet Christ did not suffer persecution of a physical nature until taken.

Could you post Scripture that shows a suffering or struggling between the flesh and the Spirit?


God bless.

 

[loDebar]

We had the same nature as Adam but we did not get it from Adam or because of Adam. We suffer from Adam's sin effect on the physical world..

 

[TCassidy]

The issue being Adam's choice, his will. And we do the same thing when tempted with the desires of the flesh.

Yes. We are in no way responsible for Adam's sin, but when faced with similar choices we make the same wrong choices. Because we are in the state of sin. Not yet sinners, until the choice is acted upon. But as David said in Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in (the state of) iniquity; and in (the state of) sin did my mother conceive me." [Italics added to clarify my understanding of the issue.]

 

[loDebar]

David was saying he was in iniquity at conception, not because of inception

 

[JonC]

An interesting issue.

Here's a verse to stir up discussion:


2 Corinthians 1
King James Version (KJV)

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.


What "sufferings" of Christ would we think he is speaking about?

Here it would seem that persecution based on doctrine is in view. Yet Christ did not suffer persecution of a physical nature until taken.

Could you post Scripture that shows a suffering or struggling between the flesh and the Spirit?


God bless.

I am speaking of Christ suffering by submitting His will as a man to the will of the Father. Here are a few verses I believe highlights this yielding:

John 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Matthew 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

Matthew 26:42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Hebrews 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

Hebrews 4:14-15 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Philippians 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[JonC]

David was saying he was in iniquity at conception, not because of inception

@TCassidy is right. David is not speaking of inherited sin but that he will be brought forth into sin (not born with iniquity but in a world where he would also sin). We do not inherit Adam's sin but we do inherit his nature (human nature). My argument, however, is that Jesus inherited this same nature but He did not sin (He submitted the will of the flesh to the will of the Spirit, set His mind not on the flesh but the Spirit). This, I believe, is possible only because Jesus is God, Jesus had the exact same nature as we share, but He was the Son of God and sharing our nature He was also the exact representation of the Father, and remained obedient to the Father where we do not.

 

[percho]

@TCassidy is right. David is not speaking of inherited sin but that he will be brought forth into sin (not born with iniquity but in a world where he would also sin). We do not inherit Adam's sin but we do inherit his nature (human nature). My argument, however, is that Jesus inherited this same nature but He did not sin (He submitted the will of the flesh to the will of the Spirit, set His mind not on the flesh but the Spirit). This, I believe, is possible only because Jesus is God, Jesus had the exact same nature as we share, but He was the Son of God and sharing our nature He was also the exact representation of the Father, and remained obedient to the Father where we do not.

Does Psalms 51:5 say, conception itself, is sin and that you are brought forth in that sin?

 

[JonC]

Does Psalms 51:5 say, conception itself, is sin and that you are brought forth in that sin?

No, it doesn't say (or imply) that conception itself is sin or that one is brought forth into that sin. Instead it simply implies the state of human nature (we sin and fall short of the glory of God).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We are born in a state removed from the intimate presence Adam enjoyed with God in the Garden. Yet we share the exact same nature that Adam had from the beginning. The issue being Adam's choice, his will. And we do the same thing when tempted with the desires of the flesh.

Adam was a public person or a Covenant head. In the Covenant of Works, he transacted not only for himself and Eve, but also for his seed and his doom was also theirs. ‘For as in Adam, all die…..’ (1Cor 15:22 ). His sin is imputed to his progeny. ‘For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners…….’ (Rom 5:19 ). The idea of a Covenant or representative head is not as strange as one might think. The head of a business makes deals and transactions on behalf of the whole corporation. A politician signs treaties that are binding upon the whole population of the country. If the Prime Minister of Great Britain were to declare war upon France, all Britons would be at war whether we approved of it or not, and if we were to meet a Frenchman with a gun, he might well feel justified in shooting us!

So it is that mankind can be described as having a bad record and a bad reputation. Not only are we constituted sinners by our covenant association with Adam, but we are sinners in our own selves. We have inherited Adam’s fallen nature. ‘And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth’ (Gen 5:3 ). Whereas Adam had been created in the image of the perfect and holy God, each of us is born with the sinful nature of fallen Adam. ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh’ (John 3:6 ). ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’ (Romans 5:12 ). The state of fallen man is desperate, and entirely our own fault. Adam sinned deliberately and so do we. We cannot plead that God’s judgements are unfair and that we should not be blamed for his iniquity. Adam sinned once and fell; fallen man sins many times a day (Rom 3:10-18 ).

Mankind has therefore utterly forfeited and lost all covenant interest in God. He can no longer claim a right in or hope of the promise of eternal life held out in the covenant. At once, he fell under guilt, which was the sentence of his own conscience, seeing himself under the just wrath of God and therefore dreading His approach (Gen 3:8-10 ). We are by nature like cockroaches that scuttle into a dark corner when the light is switched on (John 3:19 ). We are also by nature the children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). Unredeemed mankind has entirely lost its relationship with God. He is incapable of true happiness because he is at enmity with God and alienated from Him. As we have observed, the image of God in him is now wholly defaced. Where first there was the beauty of original righteousness, now there is only filthiness and deformity (Titus 3:3; Psalm 14:1-3 ).

The curse of the covenant is now in effect; man is subject to fear of death and fear of judgement and hell. He has become a debtor instead of a free man. He owes a debt of obedience that he is by no means able to settle- he has sinned infinitely against the infinite love of God and therefore owes infinitely more than he can pay. The curse is also extended to creation. The world has fallen with fallen man; it is God’s righteous judgement that sinful humans shall not live in a perfect world. “Cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life” (Gen 3:17. cf. Rom 8:20 ). Man is helpless and without strength in a harsh environment, unable to bring himself before God on a covenant of works and equally unable to bring himself on any other terms. There was no arrangement in the covenant for a second chance. Man is unable to move even one step towards reconciliation with God. The door of repentance was not opened by the Covenant of Works, and even if it had been, there would have been neither the power nor the inclination to enter it.

And yet……….

‘For when we were still without strength, Christ died for the ungodly’ (Rom 5:6 ).

O loving wisdom of our God!
When all was sin and shame,
A second Adam to the fight
And to the rescue came.

[From my blog: The Covenants Part 1. The Covenant of Works ]

 

[JonC]

Adam was a public person or a Covenant head. In the Covenant of Works, he transacted not only for himself and Eve, but also for his seed and his doom was also theirs. ‘For as in Adam, all die…..’ (1Cor 15:22 ). His sin is imputed to his progeny. ‘For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners…….’ (Rom 5:19 ). The idea of a Covenant or representative head is not as strange as one might think. The head of a business makes deals and transactions on behalf of the whole corporation. A politician signs treaties that are binding upon the whole population of the country. If the Prime Minister of Great Britain were to declare war upon France, all Britons would be at war whether we approved of it or not, and if we were to meet a Frenchman with a gun, he might well feel justified in shooting us!

So it is that mankind can be described as having a bad record and a bad reputation. Not only are we constituted sinners by our covenant association with Adam, but we are sinners in our own selves. We have inherited Adam’s fallen nature. ‘And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth’ (Gen 5:3 ). Whereas Adam had been created in the image of the perfect and holy God, each of us is born with the sinful nature of fallen Adam. ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh’ (John 3:6 ). ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’ (Romans 5:12 ). The state of fallen man is desperate, and entirely our own fault. Adam sinned deliberately and so do we. We cannot plead that God’s judgements are unfair and that we should not be blamed for his iniquity. Adam sinned once and fell; fallen man sins many times a day (Rom 3:10-18 ).

Mankind has therefore utterly forfeited and lost all covenant interest in God. He can no longer claim a right in or hope of the promise of eternal life held out in the covenant. At once, he fell under guilt, which was the sentence of his own conscience, seeing himself under the just wrath of God and therefore dreading His approach (Gen 3:8-10 ). We are by nature like cockroaches that scuttle into a dark corner when the light is switched on (John 3:19 ). We are also by nature the children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). Unredeemed mankind has entirely lost its relationship with God. He is incapable of true happiness because he is at enmity with God and alienated from Him. As we have observed, the image of God in him is now wholly defaced. Where first there was the beauty of original righteousness, now there is only filthiness and deformity (Titus 3:3; Psalm 14:1-3 ).

The curse of the covenant is now in effect; man is subject to fear of death and fear of judgement and hell. He has become a debtor instead of a free man. He owes a debt of obedience that he is by no means able to settle- he has sinned infinitely against the infinite love of God and therefore owes infinitely more than he can pay. The curse is also extended to creation. The world has fallen with fallen man; it is God’s righteous judgement that sinful humans shall not live in a perfect world. “Cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life” (Gen 3:17. cf. Rom 8:20 ). Man is helpless and without strength in a harsh environment, unable to bring himself before God on a covenant of works and equally unable to bring himself on any other terms. There was no arrangement in the covenant for a second chance. Man is unable to move even one step towards reconciliation with God. The door of repentance was not opened by the Covenant of Works, and even if it had been, there would have been neither the power nor the inclination to enter it.

And yet……….

‘For when we were still without strength, Christ died for the ungodly’ (Rom 5:6 ).

O loving wisdom of our God!
When all was sin and shame,
A second Adam to the fight
And to the rescue came.

[From my blog: The Covenants Part 1. The Covenant of Works ]

The "Covenant of Works" is a philosophical answer to a hypothetical question. It is not in Scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The "Covenant of Works" is a philosophical answer to a hypothetical question. It is not in Scripture.

I think you'll find it is.