Original Sin and Imputed Sin

Les, your a gentleman and a scholar and someone who understands communication.

I am not saying that God gave Adam and Eve the sin nature in order that they may fall. This would be teaching that God infused a principle of evil in their hearts and inclined them to evil. I am saying that GOd created Adam in such a manner that he could fall, using the word mutable (able to change).

The second part of your question regarding Cornelius is a great subject when discussing the total inability of mankind. The doctrine itself does not deny that unregenerate men are capable of performing works, in a natural or civil sense that are good, but not before God in terms of justification. To try to affirm so would be to affirm that a man may be justified by the works of the law. But no flesh shall be justified by the works fo the law.

This does not mean that God does not regard or acknowledge a natural and civil righteousness in man, and even reward him for it. In the example of Cornelius this is evident, as we both agree. Yet God sends Peter to his house to preach the Gospel that he might be saved. This is plain that while God had regard to Cornelius, Cornelius was not justified before God. Conrelius was a sinner.

 

I am not sure I follow the understanding that God must add something into Adam when he fell so as to infuse a principle of sin into him. The fall of Adam into sin resulted in the loss of righteousness and communion with God. And mankind, being IN Adam, fell with him, Adam being a type of HIm was was to come.

In this manner the nature of Adam, being upright and in perfect communion with God, became corrupted. This corruption affected every faculty of his being. In other words, there wasn't a part of Adam that remain unstained by this corruption.

God did not make Adam a sinner. Adam, by his own free-will which God gave him, corrupted himeself. Yet, in the mystery of God's Providence, this too was not outside the control of the Almighty.

As far as an unregenerate sinner desiring to come to God, the statement could be said (by a calvinist) to be correct but I would say added understanding is needed. We know that the Scriptures teach that there is none who seek the Lord. We MUST agree with God on that point. But do we not see men of every nation being religious? Did not Paul say of those who he met at Mars Hill that they were very religious? Is this not seeking God?

Not the true God, no. And not in the manner prescribed by Him. And not by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore they seek false gods, and are idolators, and do not seek the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Now, as to man's ability to come to Jesus, repent and believe on His Name and so find salvation in Him, we are not left with ambiguous Scripture on the matter. Jesus our Lord speaks directly and plainly about the ability of man to come to Him which we find in the Gospel of John. You have heard us quote John 6:44 many times, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." This is John 6:44 and 45. Verse 45 is very important to the understanding of verse 44 because it defines what is involved in the process of one coming to Jesus.

1. The man must hear.
2. The man must have learned of the Father.
3. The man has been taught by the Father.

We can then ask our Lord, "Who are the ones that you will draw, teach, and who will hear, that they will come to you?"

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

Herein is the doctrine of election preached by the Son of God.

1. The Father gives to the Son a people, all who come to Him.
2. The Father will draw them to Jesus.
3. The Son will redeem them and save them.

In this is the full Trinity displayed in the salvation of souls. This is also contained in the Pslams speaking of Christ the Father says,

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." Psalm 2:7-8

And we have by the grace of God the Son doing this thing:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

The Son does not pray for unbelievers, that is, intercede for them, but for believers only because they are the ones elected by the Father and given to the Son. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17:9


Therefore we teach, for a man to come savingly to Jesus Christ and believe on Him, He must:

1. Be given by the Father to the Son and so taught of the Father.
2. Must be drawn by the Father which in such a way, as the Son of God says, "Shall come..."
3. Must come. Because, "He who comes I will in no wise cast out." Therefore, they must come in repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, no one is saved without coming and believing on Jesus.

 

I think that my explaination makes sense in that Adam fell from his righteous estate and communion with God. And I showed this by Scripture. I dont think I can say more.

Do you have a Scripture that has Jesus saying He is a prophet? My point being, is the question is invalid. Much like asking, where does God say "I am a Trinity." The question should be, does the Scripture teach that all mankind is corrupt, there is none that does good, and this was passed to us from Adam. Yes.

All I can say is that the Scripture teaches Adam fell. Fell from what? From righteousness and communion with God. What did this "do" to Adam? It corrupted his being. How do we know? Fruit.

 

I agree that whole of Scripture is about Christ. Yet we must not diminish the teaching in this chapter concerning those who come to Jesus and believe on Him.

"But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not." John 6:36

Is this not Jesus saying, you see Me (who is the Son of God who came from the Father) but you do not BELIEVE. Why? This was the portion of what I wrote above. And so if people want to call this soteriology "calvinism" so be it. It is the teaching of our God.

Also consider brother, man's innate inability to savingly come to Jesus and believe on Christ does not remove God's right and authority to demand repentance and faith of them. Just because man cannot keep the Law of God does not nullify His authority to command us to obey it.

Thanks for the dialogue.

 

Just for the record, the point was, Jesus never said the words, "I am a prophet." Which proves nothing. Same is true of saying, where does it say total depravity, or Adam has a sin nature. These are theological words like the word Trinity.

I emphatically deny that man is born innocent like Adam. And I think such theology is contributing to the downfall of Christianity in America. But that's a whole other can of worms. It is, truly, pelagianism re-hashed. But we can both rejoice that God's truth will prevail and the inventions of men will perish. May the Lord make a quick work of it.

As for us, we will preach the Gospel of Christ and all the doctrines of God.

 

May the Lord be kind and gracious to you.

 

There will be no unity with error.

As I grow in my understanding of the errors in the churches I am finding myself more and more in agreement with the men of God of old. This Arminian error, and the ugly head of Pelagianism, and other rational schemes contrary to divine revelation, should have by God grace the axe laid to the root of the tree.

You are reahearsing arguments and errors that have been thrust down many, many times. And God willing, will be thrust down again. I see in your most recent writings that when you cannot refute the truth given you have resorted to attacks and belittleing. Something quite unbecoming of a son of God.

Perhaps I might be more persuded of your view if it were coupled with a true Christian spirit. And I see others are quickly following this same path.

 

Yes Les, don't get distracted by a well-reasoned argument that may actually contain something of intellect. lol

 

I wasn't belittling skypair, and if that is the impression I have given, I apologize. I was simply poking fun. :saint: