Original Sin and Imputed Sin

[skypair]

Les,

What RB is saying is that you can only believe if you are already born again. At what point that "born again" experience happens is a mystery ---

OR they might just tell you that, by some strange coincidence, it happens when the gospel is preached. But it certainly didn't happen because you believed first. That's against Calvinism's rule #1 -- "it's all of God."

Like Jon in the Garfield cartoon, they are putting on their "Polyester Passion" cologne for their big "soulwinning" date when we, like Garfield, come in and say, "Hey, better yet, go put on whatever it is the Odie rolls around in!" :laugh:

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, and so DEATH passed upon all MEN, for that all have SINNED. I hate to say this reformed a baby or a child is not a man.

Taken to its logical conclusion, neither is a woman a man. It sounds as though you are saying that Romans 5.12 teaches that death passed upon all adult male humans.

I freely admit to not having learned New Testament Greek, so I am quite happy to be challenged on this by someone who has. However, as I understand it from concordances, etc., there are two Greek words used in the bible translated into English as "man". One is "anthropos", meaning "any human being, whether male or female". The other word is "aner", meaning "man" in the sense of male, and although it can mean any male, it is sometimes used with reference to age, to distinguish an adult male from a boy, as when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13.11:

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. ​

In the verse you quoted the word for men is "anthropos", so in the Romans 5.12 sense, "men" does indeed include children, babies and women.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Well, right off you contradict scripture, RB. Paul said that in Christ, God made Himself a little lower than the angels. In deity, is the Father lower than the angels? Never! You are merely confused on the doctrine of the trinity. That is why I say you are applying God's attribute of immutability irrationally.

skypair

I neither contradict the Scriptures or misunderstand the Trinity. Do I fully comprehend the mystery of the Triune nature of God? No, and I expect I will not in this lifetime. You response in that the Scriptures say He was made a little lower than the angels, does in no wise mean He somehow ceased to be God, lost the divine essence or forsook the divine attributes.

By my statement above, to which you responded, as poor as it may be, it was meant to be inline with my statement of faith:

"The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty."

"In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him."

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Les,

What RB is saying is that you can only believe if you are already born again. At what point that "born again" experience happens is a mystery ---

OR they might just tell you that, by some strange coincidence, it happens when the gospel is preached. But it certainly didn't happen because you believed first. That's against Calvinism's rule #1 -- "it's all of God."

Like Jon in the Garfield cartoon, they are putting on their "Polyester Passion" cologne for their big "soulwinning" date when we, like Garfield, come in and say, "Hey, better yet, go put on whatever it is the Odie rolls around in!" :laugh:

skypair

I am editing my first sentence because it was a bit reactionary. While your cartoon illustration makes no sense to me, I am curous why you choose to take on what seems to me to be such a mocking and scoffing tone toward those who are brethren in Christ, born again children of God, but differ with you on some points of doctrine?

Also, what do you think you contributed to God's salvation of His people? How did you help God save you? Also, since you think you understand the timing, manner, nature, et. of everyone that is born again, please explain it to us "ignorant" calvinists. We reckon that the wind blows where IT wishes, and we hear the sound of it, but we do not know whence it comes or where it goes, so is everyone who is born again. Perhaps you have some other light on this subject?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Taken to its logical conclusion, neither is a woman a man. It sounds as though you are saying that Romans 5.12 teaches that death passed upon all adult male humans.

I freely admit to not having learned New Testament Greek, so I am quite happy to be challenged on this by someone who has. However, as I understand it from concordances, etc., there are two Greek words used in the bible translated into English as "man". One is "anthropos", meaning "any human being, whether male or female". The other word is "aner", meaning "man" in the sense of male, and although it can mean any male, it is sometimes used with reference to age, to distinguish an adult male from a boy, as when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13.11:

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. ​

In the verse you quoted the word for men is "anthropos", so in the Romans 5.12 sense, "men" does indeed include children, babies and women.

Well put. I love the original languages. :thumbs:

 

[lbaker]

Well, the sad part about this statement Les is it shows a misunderstanding of Reformed theology. And this subject has been answered so many times I lost count. Perhaps its just all new to you.

Good Morning RB,

It very well could be that I am misunderstanding a point here. Can you explain why Peter is not just wasting his breath here IF what you say is true and God saves only those He wants to, and we have no choice in the matter?

So, please enlighten me.

Thanks,

Les

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Explaining the meaning of Heb 2:7 and 2:9

Paul said that in Christ, God made Himself a little lower than the angels. In deity, is the Father lower than the angels? Never! You are merely confused on the doctrine of the trinity.

-skypair

While the previous response of mind had answer to skypair in clarifying my orthodox views on the doctrine of the Trinity, it seemed good to me to write somewhat concerning the Scripture skypair was referring to:

Hebrews 2:7 "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

It should become plain by the Scripture that this statement has reference to the humanity of Christ, not His deity, which can never be diminished as God cannot cease to be God. What does it mean then that Christ was made a little lower than the angels?

Christ was born under the Law, which was given by angels, who also was able to suffer infirmities even unto death, unlike the angels. Indeed, this is what the Scriptures declare plainly here in verse 9 that He was made a little lower than the angels "for the suffering of death" having reference to the incarnation, the Body which God the Father prepared for him.

As we often call this Christ's humiliation, not in a negative sense, in the sense that He humbled Himself, taking upon Himself flesh and being found in the fashion of man, which thing according to the glory of the flesh is less than an angel, we understand Christ was made a little lower than the angels.

The main point being, which Scripture itself gives us, the true sense and understanding being the suffering of death, which angels are not subject to, and in this respect be lower, but now being exalted above all things, men and angels.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Good Morning RB,

It very well could be that I am misunderstanding a point here. Can you explain why Peter is not just wasting his breath here IF what you say is true and God saves only those He wants to, and we have no choice in the matter?

So, please enlighten me.

Thanks,

Les

Good morning brother. What I believe this question relates to, and is the same as, is the often asked question regarding the sincerity of the Gospel call in light of God's election of particular persons.

It should be evident to all, both Calvinists or otherwise, that the call of the Gospel is universal. There are, for certain, some extreme calvinist views that may differ, but we are speaking of historic calvinsim. Some have regarded the great Baptist John Gill in this camp, which may be, but I doubt, for example.

I think its needless to show by Scripture the plain and clear universal call of the Gospel to all nations wherein God commands all people everywhere to repent.

It is also equally true and evidenced by a large number of passages of Holy Scripture, that not all who are exposed to the call of God will be among the redeemed. The Scriptures declare that those called by the Gospel, will in fact harden their hearts, this God knowing before hand. I fail to see how the Arminian scheme is advantaged in this regard. The Arminian scheme teaches that God knew beforehand who would choose and who would not, i.e respond to the Gospel call. This theology places God's foreknowledge on the basis of what men will do by their free-will. Whether we have adopted this scheme, or the calvinist, in both cases God issues a universal call of the Gospel to all people, knowing they will not received Christ.

So under either scheme, the call is universal and would based on God's foreknowledge and election be either sincere or insincere. The calvinist believes that man's reponse to the Gospel call springs from the election of God. The Arminian believes God's election springs from man's choice. Yet in either case, God knows beforehand.

So, both the Arminian and the Calvinist could have the same calumny laid against the universal call of the Gospel being insincere. My response is simple, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14 And I regard the scope of the call greater than the acceptence.

In light of the calvinist scheme, which teaches a particular redemption, the question comes whether or not it is right for God to make a universal call to those not included in the redemption of Christ. The idea is that God is issuing a call to persons whom He has no purpose to save, but nevertheless invites. My response would be different than the old divines I think. It is plain that the Gospel invitation is universal. It is equally clear that we who believe were chosen before the foundation of the world. Recieve both because they are God's revelation to you. But stop this insane questioning of the character of God because, "Who are you O man to reply against God."

What the calvinist is saying is that the call of God to every single person is sincere and true. And what the Calvinist is saying is that if anyone is saved at all by God's calling men to repentance and faith, it is by the operation and grace of Almighty God.

It was C.H. Spurgeon that gave the illustration that written upon the front gate of heaven is "Whosover will, let him come." And when we see our sins and need of Christ, and turn in repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus and walk through, we turn and look back and see, 'Chosen from the foundation of the world."

Spurgeon also said,

"That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

The great "Prince of Preachers" as he was called, saw not in his lifetime how these two great truths of God converge. I admit that neither do I fully comprehend. But by the grace of God I will freely and unashamedly confess both.

I end with a quote from John Owen:

Perhaps some will say it is in this, that if Christ did not die for all to whom the word is preached, then how can they that preach it offer Christ to all? …Answer…What do the preachers of the gospel offer to them to whom the word is preached? Is it not life and salvation through Christ, upon the condition of faith and repentance? And doth not the truth of this offer consist in this, that every one that believeth shall be saved? And doth not that truth stand firm and inviolable, so long as there is an all-sufficiency in Christ to save all that come unto him? Hath God intrusted the ministers of the gospel with his intentions, purpose, and counsels, or with his commands and promises? Is it a lie, to tell men that he that believeth shall be saved, though Christ did not die for some of them?" (The Atonement)

THe following link contains numerous quotes from calvinists on the topic I thought was very enlightening:

http://www.corkfpc.com/freeoffercalvinists.html

 

[lbaker]

Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to think on all that and get back to you later on.

Les

 

[skypair]

I neither contradict the Scriptures or misunderstand the Trinity. Do I fully comprehend the mystery of the Triune nature of God? No, and I expect I will not in this lifetime.

That's the real issue, then. You say you could understand it better then, right?

Have you considered my view? That we can consider God as His and our SOUL -- the Spirit equivalent to our spirit -- Jesus equivalent to our body? Yet God is three Persons and we are one. Right now, our believing souls are above the angels spiritually seated with God in Christ -- but like Christ, our bodies are still here not knowing what goes on at the throne. We have the mind/Spirit of God and Christ to some lesser degree that is our potential (just like Jesus when He was here) on account of we have to "hear" it from scripture and have the Spirit grow us.

Do you see the extent, then, that Christ was limited in His deity? Forsook some divine attributes?

"The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty."

While I appreciate your quotation, it sounds like someone trying to make much out of his ignorance. Remember when you used to have to turn in a 5 page report in school and didn't know enough to fill 5 pages? So with "bluster and bluff" you tried to muddle through. :laugh: He's just taking so many repetitions of the same attribute.

"In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences,...

I do like this word tho -- "subsistences." It does appear to me that God "subsumed" His body and Spirit into separate entities before creation in order to accomplish His purposes.

... the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;.... the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son;

Both coming forth from the Father in some way, then, as I submit.

... but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties...

There's the part we are talking about, right?

skypair

 

[charles_creech78]

Taken to its logical conclusion, neither is a woman a man. It sounds as though you are saying that Romans 5.12 teaches that death passed upon all adult male humans.

I freely admit to not having learned New Testament Greek, so I am quite happy to be challenged on this by someone who has. However, as I understand it from concordances, etc., there are two Greek words used in the bible translated into English as "man". One is "anthropos", meaning "any human being, whether male or female". The other word is "aner", meaning "man" in the sense of male, and although it can mean any male, it is sometimes used with reference to age, to distinguish an adult male from a boy, as when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13.11:

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. ​

In the verse you quoted the word for men is "anthropos", so in the Romans 5.12 sense, "men" does indeed include children, babies and women.

You mean to tell me when you look at a male baby you see a man. That is just ignorant. How can you tell me a baby know how to sin. You all are ignorant read the scripture I given you again. I SIN AGAINST GOD BECAUSE I DID IT. I NEW I DID IT. A baby don't KNOW how to sin. You are speeking evil of something that is good in God eyes. How did you KNOW you sin against God. Be truthful about it and lie not. I am talking Spiritruly KNOW that you sin against God. When you know to do good and DO IT NOT then it is SIN. I do not know why you people are being so ignorant with the word of God. And you change it to fit your needs.

 

[skypair]

I am editing my first sentence because it was a bit reactionary.

Just shows we both "react," eh?

While your cartoon illustration makes no sense to me,...

I guess you would have had to see it.

Also, what do you think you contributed to God's salvation of His people?

I spread His gospel is all. He doesn't have "people" until they hear.

How did you help God save you?

I "opened the door," Rev 3:20. I grabbed hold of the "Life-ring."

Also, since you think you understand the timing, manner, nature, et. of everyone that is born again, please explain it to us "ignorant" calvinists. We reckon that the wind blows where IT wishes, and we hear the sound of it, but we do not know whence it comes or where it goes, so is everyone who is born again. Perhaps you have some other light on this subject?

For one thing, y'all somehow assume the "wind" doesn't blow on everyone. Then, when you have experienced it, it is like you don't want to follow it where it goes but follow some man who tells you where it goes. Friend, God's plan for you is unique for you. You need to take "sola scriptura" and apply it to your life now and follow where it leads. Remember, it's a relationship with GOD that you want, not with Calvin.

Have you read 1Cor 15:35-38 lately? God resurrects/rebirths you to a new FUTURE giving you a body as it pleases Him, not Calvin. The thing I find is that man will shape you as best he knows but the more "ancient" man's advice, the less he knows what he is doing (generally speaking).

It's like this -- if you were a dead OT saint and Christ raised you, you would know his perfect will and would NOT need to follow men at all, right? Such is the Christian now only Christ communicates through scripture now rather than directly.

skypair

 

[lbaker]

Okay, here's what makes sense to me, and I'm sure this is neither Calvinist or Arminian:

When Paul writes in Romans 8 about God foreknowing and predestining and so forth he is writing about believers as a group and not individuals. What he is saying is that God has a purpose and we are part of it, that God foreknew and predestined that Jesus would die for us, and that people would respond, and that it wasn't something He just came up with in 33 AD. Bottom line is God has a plan.

I'll try and break it down:

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. God is looking out for us, those of us who were called through the Gospel, which He had planned, it was by His purpose that Jesus came and died, making a way for us to be saved.29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. God's intent is that those who respond to the gospel, that He knows will be preached, according to His purpose, will become "like" Jesus. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.God has been involved all along, those who respond to the Gospel that God planned will be justified and glorified.

What I'm trying to say is that God did foreordain that a group of folks would be saved, because He foreordained Jesus' mission that would make it possible. But, this doesn't mean we don't have a choice to make, as individuals.

Les

 

[ReformedBaptist]

You mean to tell me when you look at a male baby you see a man. That is just ignorant. How can you tell me a baby know how to sin. You all are ignorant read the scripture I given you again. I SIN AGAINST GOD BECAUSE I DID IT. I NEW I DID IT. A baby don't KNOW how to sin. You are speeking evil of something that is good in God eyes. How did you KNOW you sin against God. Be truthful about it and lie not. I am talking Spiritruly KNOW that you sin against God. When you know to do good and DO IT NOT then it is SIN. I do not know why you people are being so ignorant with the word of God. And you change it to fit your needs.

Ok, let's see here... you have:

1. Called us ignorant, and whoever else you intend to rail at.
2. You accused us of speaking evil.
3. You have insinuated and possible outright called us a liar.
4. You have called us, and others, "You people" which is belittleing

And, thus, you have lost my respect to honestly engage in any kind of dialogue with you.

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Just shows we both "react," eh?

I am a sinner, indeed.

I guess you would have had to see it.

Probably

I spread His gospel is all. He doesn't have "people" until they hear.

This is contrary to the Scripture. See John 11:51-52

I "opened the door," Rev 3:20. I grabbed hold of the "Life-ring."

This is what I have been showing these boards continually. That such theology is works based. Man adding to God's work.

For one thing, y'all somehow assume the "wind" doesn't blow on everyone. Then, when you have experienced it, it is like you don't want to follow it where it goes but follow some man who tells you where it goes. Friend, God's plan for you is unique for you. You need to take "sola scriptura" and apply it to your life now and follow where it leads. Remember, it's a relationship with GOD that you want, not with Calvin.

Stop with the stupid calumny that Calvinists follow John Calvin.

Have you read 1Cor 15:35-38 lately? God resurrects/rebirths you to a new FUTURE giving you a body as it pleases Him, not Calvin. The thing I find is that man will shape you as best he knows but the more "ancient" man's advice, the less he knows what he is doing (generally speaking).

More straw men and empty arguments from you. And in fact, I read that very passage this Sunday.

It's like this -- if you were a dead OT saint and Christ raised you, you would know his perfect will and would NOT need to follow men at all, right? Such is the Christian now only Christ communicates through scripture now rather than directly.

All men indeed are dead in their trespasses and sins. They are not alive to the things of God and need to be resurrected. What you propose is that you initiated the the ressurection (being born again) by your will. Scripture is steadfast against such teaching.

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Okay, here's what makes sense to me, and I'm sure this is neither Calvinist or Arminian:

When Paul writes in Romans 8 about God foreknowing and predestining and so forth he is writing about believers as a group and not individuals. What he is saying is that God has a purpose and we are part of it, that God foreknew and predestined that Jesus would die for us, and that people would respond, and that it wasn't something He just came up with in 33 AD. Bottom line is God has a plan.

I'll try and break it down:

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. God is looking out for us, those of us who were called through the Gospel, which He had planned, it was by His purpose that Jesus came and died, making a way for us to be saved.29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. God's intent is that those who respond to the gospel, that He knows will be preached, according to His purpose, will become "like" Jesus. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.God has been involved all along, those who respond to the Gospel that God planned will be justified and glorified.

What I'm trying to say is that God did foreordain that a group of folks would be saved, because He foreordained Jesus' mission that would make it possible. But, this doesn't mean we don't have a choice to make, as individuals.

Les

Hey Les,

Well brother, based on what your saying here I would have to say your far closer to a calvinist theology than another. Now please understand I use the term calvinist as a tool of convienence. I don't care for the label. I agree 100% that God forordained a group of folks would be saved too. Believers! I can't imagine a group of folks not being made up of individuals. lol

And I agree that this truth in Scripture does not destroy choice. Man must repent and believe the Gospel. The OP of this thread was to simply show by Scripture and plain reason that man does not posses, after the fall, the innate ability to do so. But that it is the goodness of God that leads him to repentence and God's grace that gives him faith. He is dead in his sins. God quickens him and He sees Christ, Christ light shines in his darkness, and he turns and follows Jesus.

All glory to God.

 

[skypair]

I spread His gospel is all. He doesn't have "people" until they hear.

This is contrary to the Scripture. See John 11:51-52

Even in the scripture you cite, the children of God ... scattered abroad" were no children because they didn't yet exist, RB.

I "opened the door," Rev 3:20. I grabbed hold of the "Life-ring."

This is what I have been showing these boards continually. That such theology is works based. Man adding to God's work.

You assume that "belief" is works -- but look at Rom 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." This is the perfect picture of JUSTIFICATION that is the 1st phase of I been talking about -- righteousness! Before faith -- before regeneration -- before "election" -- there has to be CONVICTED, REPENTANT BELIEF!

Stop with the stupid calumny that Calvinists follow John Calvin.

I don't find in scripture what you assert. What else am I to think?

What you propose is that you initiated the the ressurection (being born again) by your will. Scripture is steadfast against such teaching. Calvin's misinterpretation of scripture is "steadfast against" it. That is true. Care to hear another one that is not the "critical card" in Calvin's "house of cards?" I have to say it again - you probably got saved by the Spirit and then chose to follow Calvin as if he were the Spirit speaking to you. Catholics do it all the time with the Pope. This is not a "house of cards" that you personally did or could construct and it is not one that God would construct.

You used 1Cor 15:35 in church? Cool! I hope you noticed that we live in bodies of "terrestrial glory" now.

skypair

 

[skypair]

And I agree that this truth in Scripture does not destroy choice.

"Irresistible" doesn't destroy choice? You ever meet a "hit man" who presents you an "offer you can't refuse?" If so, I bet I know which "choice" you made?

Man must repent and believe the Gospel.

But you say after he is already "quicked." "Quickened" means saved, born again, already, RB! So, repent of what? Believe what?

But that it is the goodness of God that leads him to repentence and God's grace that gives him faith. He is dead in his sins. God quickens him and He sees Christ, Christ light shines in his darkness, and he turns and follows Jesus.

This is the common understanding of Cavlinists that I get -- you just stated it. That's like communion without the wine, bro -- lartaking of the life of Christ without partaking of His death! That's ALL "doing" without the proper foundation -- on top of which you consider following Calvin's leadership to be following Christ, right? That isn't where the Spirit came from and that is not where He is going.

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Even in the scripture you cite, the children of God ... scattered abroad" were no children because they didn't yet exist, RB.

You assume that "belief" is works -- but look at Rom 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." This is the perfect picture of JUSTIFICATION that is the 1st phase of I been talking about -- righteousness! Before faith -- before regeneration -- before "election" -- there has to be CONVICTED, REPENTANT BELIEF!

I don't find in scripture what you assert. What else am I to think?

What you propose is that you initiated the the ressurection (being born again) by your will. Scripture is steadfast against such teaching. Calvin's misinterpretation of scripture is "steadfast against" it. That is true. Care to hear another one that is not the "critical card" in Calvin's "house of cards?" I have to say it again - you probably got saved by the Spirit and then chose to follow Calvin as if he were the Spirit speaking to you. Catholics do it all the time with the Pope. This is not a "house of cards" that you personally did or could construct and it is not one that God would construct.

skypair

skypair

[/QUOTE]

Some people just can't help themselves. Unless you can stop these calumnies I am going to assume its impossible to dialogue with you. I follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I affirm with the Scripture the Salvation is of the Lord. And let him who glories, glory in the Lord.

I affirm that my salvation was given to me by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. I have nothing which I did not receive, again, agreeing withe Scripture. I have nothing of which I can boast. It is all of grace.

The Gospel as preached by the Arminian is a distorted Gospel, and that's why I contend earnestly for you seem to hate so much, whcih is eronously called Calvinism.

The children of God, whom you say did not exist, were known to God before the world began. In fact, the Bible says that God gave them His salvation in Christ before the world began!

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 2 Tim 1:9

Sky, you may think I have been bewitched by John Calvin, but I testify to you and all here that my conscience is bound to the Word of God in this matter.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

"Irresistible" doesn't destroy choice? You ever meet a "hit man" who presents you an "offer you can't refuse?" If so, I bet I know which "choice" you made?

But you say after he is already "quicked." "Quickened" means saved, born again, already, RB! So, repent of what? Believe what?

This is the common understanding of Cavlinists that I get -- you just stated it. That's like communion without the wine, bro -- lartaking of the life of Christ without partaking of His death! That's ALL "doing" without the proper foundation -- on top of which you consider following Calvin's leadership to be following Christ, right? That isn't where the Spirit came from and that is not where He is going.

skypair

1. You again are displaying your lack of knowledge or concern to understand Reformed and Calvinistic theology. And its starting to get boring hearing you misunderstand it over and over again.

2. I don't follow Calvin. I don't follow his leadership. The doctrine did not originate from John Calvin. This is my last request of you. STOP this stupid and fruitless calumny. I have no interest in "debating" someone who seems to just want to prodcuce strawmen.