Original Sin and Imputed Sin

There's a conundrum for you --- can God choose to be immutable or not? :laugh:

Take for example -- can God choose to become a human instead of a mere Spirit? Can He choose to be a baby in a manger rather than the King that He is?

skypair

 

Bro. RB,

I am trying to understand what "total depravity" means. Apparently I did have a wrong impression as I thought it meant that people really were just as evil as they could be.

Okay, if it doesn't mean that, exactly, how does it change our behavior?

If I understand you correctly, (and I may not) Adam and Eve start out with somehow a lesser propensity to sin than we do. They Fall anyway, and then boom, they now have a greater tendency toward sin and this tendency is passed along to their children? Does this new "sin nature" mean that man can never do anything that is righteous or that pleases God?

Where did the "sin nature" come from? How was it added to Adam's (and I assume Eve's) spiritual/mental/physical makeup? Is it something that God added to us? Did Satan add it to us?

Seems like there would be something in the Genesis account about it but I can't see anything there. God does talk about how they (Adam and Eve) now have a knowledge of good and evil, but nothing about them receiving a new nature that makes them more prone to sin.

As for Romans 5, that all seems to be referring to how we all physically die, and how we share in the consequences of Adam's sin in that we die just like he did.

I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect, but I just don't see where this idea of Total Depravity comes from.

As for Noah, and probably Enoch too, I agree that they were justified just as we are, by Grace through Faith. But, it certainly appears that their behavior was more Godly than that of the folks around them, and that God responded to that in how He dealt with them.

Good night, and "see" ya later,

Les

 

Your study does, indeed, bring us to that question -- "What changed? And why are all men in the same condition?"

Have you reviewed the "blood poisoning" theory above?

Let me also suggest that Edwards was not talking about our infancy but humanity's infancy. As such, he really wasn't claiming any sin guilt laid upon infants but a proclivity for sin born of the "flesh."

So was Jesus born of the flesh? No. We know for a fact that He was born of the seed of the Spirit! If He had had to be "born again" as we arem, from corrupted bodies, then He may have sinned before being born again, right?

Jesus was "born again" and "born" at the same time. The OT saints will, likewise, be "born again" 100% of the Spirit when they are resurrected into Messiah's kingdom, the MK. Check out Dan 9:24 -- "bring in everlasting righteousness" of Israel.

skypair

 

A reformed baptist why don't you get to the point and just tell us you believe a baby can go to hell. Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, and so DEATH passed upon all MEN, for that all have SINNED. I hate to say this reformed a baby or a child is not a man. It said sin ENTERED INTO THE WORLD. ( For until the LAW SIN WAS IN THE WORLD: but sin is not IMPUTED when there is no LAW. Imputed: To set to the account of, Within,inside of, surrounded by; Need I say more. Ro 7:9 For I was ALIVE without the law ONCE: but when the commandment came SIN REVIVED, and I died.

 

Or, as regarding us, "the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." Same thing! Adam sinned -- he died spiritually as you note. BUT both Adam and we must actually commit sin before we die spiritually! Does an infant sin??

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That's the reason this thread was started, eh? Note, Rom 5 says "where there is no law, sin is not imputed." Why do they die? On account of Adam. It says "all in Adam die" meaning PHYSICAL death. Yes, if one grows up one sins and dies spiritually. But an infant does not die spiritually -- they are innocent. So what happens to them? They will be resurrected into the MK as "just" and will choose (or not choose) Christ at that time.

skypair

 

what you really mean to say here is "choose," right?"

This is basically to say that God created sin, right? That is how Calvinists view it, correct?

No, we were cast into corruption, out of the Garden, with Adam. That meant physical death, NOT necessarily spiritual death. Infants are the "case in point" -- no sin, they do die since we are not in the Garden, but they don't die spiritually.

Good! By Adam we were cast out of the Garden -- by Christ we will be let back in spiritually! I like that!!

Perhaps we can restate that to be whole truth: Our inhereited nature causes our "hearts" (mind, emotions, and will) to be corrupted to where we would sin continually if there were no laws, no parents, no government, no God, etc. But we all DO keep one eye" on these authorities and that is the essence of God's witness to ALL men, Rom 1:20.

Slaves in Jesus and Paul's day were very different from what we consider them now. Under the Mosaic law, slaves were set free of their debt of slavery every 7 years. Yes, we are slaves to some extent as the Bible says, but to make that out as that a slave has no choices is half truth.

skypair

 

There you go -- unless he/ she is baptised in the Reform church. That is the WHOLE "fabric" of the "cloth" right there, chas!

skypair

 

Hey Skypair,

Do you have a passage for that?

Thanks,

Les

 

Never minding the total depravity, the question about the "sin nature" is valid and often unanswered. Obviously one cannot find a verse that says "the sin nature is located in the _____". It can only be deduced from Scripture.

Being conceived in sin, as the Bible states gives a good idea how it is passed on, that being seminally. We know it isn't from the woman but the man, Adam, that we receive this nature and since it occurs at conception (conceived in sin) then we know it is seminally. So it can be assign a locality, that being the physical part of a human, namely the flesh. I understand my response is quite brief and not a treatise so as to answer every possible objection or question but it is a starting point for that isolated question in your post.

 

Well, I hope God can sin. I hope He can take upon Himself all the sin of the world such that He could say, "My God! My God! Why hast Thou forsaken Me!" Like they say, "HE chose the nails." He chose sin --- after taking our chastisement in His body, He took our spiritual punishment in His Own Spirit. "He who knew no sin became sin for us."

I think all your mutability beliefs are in regard to the Father, sir.

skypair

 

I do not believe we was born with sin. I believe we was born in a world of sin. If you say we was born a sinner then you are saying God is of sin. God made us to be rightess and just and to give him the glory. You cannot sin till you transgress the law. Other words break the law. A baby and a child cannot break it because they have not the knowledge of the law. The knowledge of the law is when you know to do good and do it not. Then it becomes sin and sin brings for death. Reformed baptist I read your post wrong it was late last night when I read it and I did read it wrong brother. I am sorry about that and I pray that you forgive me.

 

Les here

From Acts 2:

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."

Sounds like these folks have a choice, and Peter is trying to convince them to respond to the Gospel message. If Reformed theology is correct, why did Peter need to try to convince these folks, even plead with them, to choose the Good News? Either God will save them, regardless of what Peter says or doesn't say, or God won't give them the ability to understand and respond, so Peter is really just wasting his breath here, if these folks are unable to respond. It sure reads like Peter is putting the onus on the crowd, to make a decision themselves and that he expects them to understand what he is saying.

 

Well, right off you contradict scripture, RB. Paul said that in Christ, God made Himself a little lower than the angels. In deity, is the Father lower than the angels? Never! You are merely confused on the doctrine of the trinity. That is why I say you are applying God's attribute of immutability irrationally.

skypair