Original Sin

pinoy, russell,

Your theology is good -- now here's why. There is a postrib "resurrection of the just." The "just" are those who have been given the righteousness of God either because of innocence (infants) or because of faith in the God of the OT (remember, they didn't have Christ yet).

In that resurrection, those saints will be resurrected with what mind, emotions and will they left the earth/life with. OT saints will automatically see Messiah/Christ and receive. Infants will grow up (Isa 49:20-23) and either believe or reject Christ. Thus, EVERY soul will come through Christ.

skypair

 

I have no idea what you are referring to.

If infants are just, what does it mean when it says we are all "by nature objects of God's wrath"? How can someone just be an object of God's wrath?

Oh boy.

Once again, you've lost me. I don't believe in infant baptism (never have) and I have no idea what it has to do with this conversation.

 

Webdog,

What does it mean when it says that we are all "by nature objects of God's wrath?"

Does that statement include infants?

 

I supposed that you were suggesting that infants go to heaven if they were baptized first.

It means the same thing as "sin nature." That we are predisposed to sin by our natural "survival instinct." The survival instinct is a good, innocent, necessary mechanism until we comprehend that we can use its devices to get what we want rather than what we need. Then it is only a matter of seeing that the former is sin before we become guilty of our first sin.

Thus, everyone who could hear and comprehend Paul's statement were already "objects of wrath," the cause of which was our "survival instinct" gone bad.

This does 2 things for the Calvinist: 1) It answers the question of how infants avoid going to hell. 2) It confirms that we are NOT burdened from birth with sin guilt nor are some "elect" infants saved by baptism.

skypair

 

Apparently I am not saying what you think I'm saying, even though I have no idea what you think I'm saying.

And you didn't answer my question. It's pretty straightforward, so I'm not sure why you didn't answer it. Perhaps you missed it.

Are all human beings, including infants, "by nature objects of God's wrath"?

 

Are you a politician webdog? :laugh:

 

I was just reading Grudem's systematic Theology on this yesterday. Well worth reading.

 

So if you are not charged with Adam's sin, how can you be charged with Christ's righteousness? How can you get righteousness you did not earn if you do not also get guilt you did not earn?

 

Yes, there is difference between nature and guilt. I'm not sure what that has to do with my question, and I'm not sure what you mean by "What do you base the question on?", but I'll attempt to answer it anyway.

I base the question on Ephesians 2 where it says "we were by nature objects of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Are infants included in either the we or the rest of mankind who are by nature objects of God's wrath?

 

No.

skypair

 

So if infants aren't "we" or "the rest," then what are they? Where's the middle ground between "we" and "the rest"?

 

You've given a pretty good definition of the word translated "nature" but you've still not answered the question. I take it you think it means that we (Paul writing) Jews were by birth or by ethnic origin objects of God's wrath even as the gentiles are. I's say it means that we believers were by birth or by our origin objects of God's wrath even as unbelievers still are.

But it really makes no difference. Let's go for a second with your interpretation. Are Jewish babies included in the group that are objects of God's wrath by birth or ethnic origin?

 

Before you answer that Webdog:

How many here believe:
1. Some babies whether born, miscarried, or aborted die and go to hell.
or
2. Babies do not go to Hell.

If you chose #1 they you have great issues to deal with arising from scriptures like in John 9:

This is refering to being spiritually blind. Jesus states that untill you KNOW of SIN you are not held Guilty OF THAT sin. PERIOD!

Babies don't go to Heaven because they are sinless but because they have yet to reach an age where they could acknowledge the sin that arose from their sin nature. Scripture states they are blind and since that sin was not imputed to their charge (having no sin) they are not judged. But those who say they have understanding it is to THESE says the scriptures in whom their REMAINS.

Note it doesn't say comes upon them but REMAINS. The sin nature that seperates us from God due to being born in sin.