Orthodox Christians

[DHK]

Exactly, to God there are no ifs, but unfortunately you are not God so there are ifs for you. From Gods perspective His sheep are those whom at the end of their race will have chosen Him by living the way He has asked them too. These obedient are His and no man can take them from Him. This is all from Gods view not mans. It proves nothing about the point you are making. From mans perspective we are command to be obedient.

I am not God, but I have God's word--his revelation to mankind, and thus his perspective. His perspective is at odds with what you wrote. Never does he require any of his sheep to do all that he has asked him to. Failure is inevitable.

I asked you a question, a rhetorical one, and you answered it for me. Your answer was one loaded with great uncertainty. Let me answer my own question.

If I were suddenly to die this moment with unconfessed sin not repented of, would I still go to heaven.
Yes, I most certainly would. I know I would go to heaven as surely as if I had already been there. "He that hath the Son hath life." I have the Son; I have life. It is that simple. I take Christ at his word.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--There is no condemnation the them that are in Christ Jesus.
All of my sins are under the blood.
He has forgiven them all: past, present and future.
On the cross he said: "It is finished." There is nothing more for him to do, and nothing more for me to do, once I believe. If I have to do anything more then salvation by grace through faith, has become nothing more than any other religion of the world--a religion of works.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That is an opinion and remains as such until you can defend it with Scripture. I don't see it in the Bible, and have never seen it in the Bible. It is a novelty.

I have defended it with scripture many times here.

It is certainly not a novelty, as the great majority of Christendom holds it and has held it from apostolic times.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

One of your many problems is in the definition of words. You will take a word, universally accepted by the entire community of orthodox Christianity, and at your own whim and will change the meaning. Sorry to say, but that is what cults do and that is how they start. It is difficult to discuss "eternal life" when one has redefined the word "eternal" and doesn't believe in "eternal" or that "eternal" even exists.

However, using the traditional and accepted definition of eternal, forever and ever, the gift of eternal life is given to the believer at the time of salvation. It is a promise of Christ (John 5:24; 10:27-30). If it is a gift given to those that believe on him then they already have it in their possession. It cannot be taken away. If it could be taken away or even lost or rejected as you suggest, then eternal would not be eternal. It would only be temporary, and Christ would found to be a liar.

That one argument is so simple I don't know how any one can reject it. If he gives eternal life then he gives eternal life. Does he lie?

Once again, the "cult" charge. I don't know why I always ignore my own statement and try again to converse with you. I think I have finally learned my lesson this time, though.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I never suggested that you believe exactly like him, however you do believe like him in the sense that you both don't believe in eternal security.

I know exactly what you believe, in that your statement of faith is succinctly written on your web-page. And you are right, there is no one here who would agree with it in all points.

Nor anywhere. I don't fit neatly into theological or denominational boxes; that frustrates a lot of people.

And that, hopefully, is my last word to you. I'm tired of being called cultic and lumped in with cults.

 

[DHK]

I have defended it with scripture many times here.

It is certainly not a novelty, as the great majority of Christendom holds it and has held it from apostolic times.

A lot of people hold to purgatory and many other such doctrines. That doesn't mean they can defend them from Scripture. Cling to your "tradition" if you wish. My authority is the Bible.

 

[DHK]

Once again, the "cult" charge. I don't know why I always ignore my own statement and try again to converse with you. I think I have finally learned my lesson this time, though.

I didn't say or charge you of being in a cult. I told you what cults do. Draw your own conclusions. I only stated the facts. I made no charge against you.

 

[DHK]

Nor anywhere. I don't fit neatly into theological or denominational boxes; that frustrates a lot of people.

And that, hopefully, is my last word to you. I'm tired of being called cultic and lumped in with cults.

Where did I use the word "cult" here? I directed my comments to your website. Your beliefs are written on your website, so that everyone can know it. Furthermore you are from the denomination of the Celtic Anabaptist Church. You have defined yourself many times. Now you play the martyr?

 

[The Biblicist]

Sounds good, when where you going to begin?

John 6:37-39 clearly and explicitly and categorically denies that a single solitary one who has come to Father will be lost:

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. All that are given come and giving is the cause for coming
2. All that come NONE shall be lost
3. All that come "should be raised up again at the last day"

The phrase "should be raised up again at the the last day" does not speak of general resurrection as that is true of both lost and saved but speaks of the resurrection to life as it is again used in the very next verse for those with "eternal life"

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is no CONDITIONAL life expressed here. There is no future UNCERTAINTY expressed here. There is ABSOLUTE ETERNAL LIFE expressed here for every single solitary one given to the Son by the Father as every single solitary one given by the father comes to the son and every single solitary one that comes to the Son OF THEM NONE ARE LOST but all are raised to eternal life.

 

[The Biblicist]

John 6:37-39 clearly and explicitly and categorically denies that a single solitary one who has come to Father will be lost:

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. All that are given come and giving is the cause for coming
2. All that come NONE shall be lost
3. All that come "should be raised up again at the last day"

The phrase "should be raised up again at the the last day" does not speak of general resurrection as that is true of both lost and saved but speaks of the resurrection to life as it is again used in the very next verse for those with "eternal life"

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is no CONDITIONAL life expressed here. There is no future UNCERTAINTY expressed here. There is ABSOLUTE ETERNAL LIFE expressed here for every single solitary one given to the Son by the Father as every single solitary one given by the father comes to the son and every single solitary one that comes to the Son OF THEM NONE ARE LOST but all are raised to eternal life.

1 Pet. 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jesus is not only the "author" and the "finisher" of our faith (Heb. 12:2) but he also is the sustainer of our faith.

This is the lesson behind the story of Job in the Old Testament. Satan came before God and claimed that if Job was placed into his hands that he Job would curse God. God gave Job over into his hands not because he was betting on Job would have a strong enough faith to overcome all that Satan would throw at him but because it was God's power not Job's power that sustained the faith of Job.

What God has begun in us Paul is confident will continue to the day of redemption because it is God that is sustaining it not Paul:

Philip. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philip. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[The Biblicist]

1 Pet. 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jesus is not only the "author" and the "finisher" of our faith (Heb. 12:2) but he also is the sustainer of our faith.

This is the lesson behind the story of Job in the Old Testament. Satan came before God and claimed that if Job was placed into his hands that he Job would curse God. God gave Job over into his hands not because he was betting on Job would have a strong enough faith to overcome all that Satan would throw at him but because it was God's power not Job's power that sustained the faith of Job.

What God has begun in us Paul is confident will continue to the day of redemption because it is God that is sustaining it not Paul:

Philip. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philip. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If you think about the lost condition it is the human will that is in need of being saved from choosing sin. Salvation begins with the human will and thus Philippians 2:13 it is God working in the saved person that produces the willingness to continue in faith and a willingness to do what God commands:

Philip. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is precisely why in Romans 7:18 the redeemed will is still without power to overcome indwelling sin apart from the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Power to overcome inclination to do evil is derived from God not from our own will power:

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

It is the NEW HEART given in regeneration that governs the will as the will is nothing more than the servant of the heart. The will has no independency from the heart but is simply its expression. That is precisely why the Greek terms translated "will" in the New Testament (1) Thelema and (2) Boulomai are expressions of the will as governed by mind and emotions as "thelma" is the will where emotions are dominant in choice and "boulomai" is the will where mind is dominant in choice. This new redeemed will has no inherent power to overcome indwelling sin and thus it is not our will that sustains us in Christ but the power of the indwelling Spirit.

 

[Bob Hope]

I am not God, but I have God's word--his revelation to mankind, and thus his perspective. His perspective is at odds with what you wrote. Never does he require any of his sheep to do all that he has asked him to. Failure is inevitable.

I asked you a question, a rhetorical one, and you answered it for me. Your answer was one loaded with great uncertainty. Let me answer my own question.

If I were suddenly to die this moment with unconfessed sin not repented of, would I still go to heaven.
Yes, I most certainly would. I know I would go to heaven as surely as if I had already been there. "He that hath the Son hath life." I have the Son; I have life. It is that simple. I take Christ at his word.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--There is no condemnation the them that are in Christ Jesus.
All of my sins are under the blood.
He has forgiven them all: past, present and future.
On the cross he said: "It is finished." There is nothing more for him to do, and nothing more for me to do, once I believe. If I have to do anything more then salvation by grace through faith, has become nothing more than any other religion of the world--a religion of works.

Uncertainty for who? There is no uncertainty for the obedient in Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Uncertainty for who? There is no uncertainty for the obedient in Christ.

Try reading again what he said. There is no such human being who is 100% obedient to all of God's commandments and if you think you are John says you are deceived - 1 Jn. 1:8. Hence, at least sin of omission is always present. Just because you have been forgiven does not change the fact that your life came short, indeed, asking for cleansing proves it came short. If you think at the moment of cleansing that either changed the character of your life or the indwelling principle of sin and all of a sudden you have graduated from coming short unto 100% perfection you are deceived.

Therefore, the issue is never if you cease to be a sinner but whether you are a sinner whose sins, past, present and future have been paid in full.

We do not ask for cleansing to be RESAVED but merely to remove from our present EXPERIENCE what separates us from TEMPORAL blessings and fellowship with God.

 

[Bob Hope]

John 6:37-39 clearly and explicitly and categorically denies that a single solitary one who has come to Father will be lost:

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1. All that are given come and giving is the cause for coming
2. All that come NONE shall be lost
3. All that come "should be raised up again at the last day"

The phrase "should be raised up again at the the last day" does not speak of general resurrection as that is true of both lost and saved but speaks of the resurrection to life as it is again used in the very next verse for those with "eternal life"

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is no CONDITIONAL life expressed here. There is no future UNCERTAINTY expressed here. There is ABSOLUTE ETERNAL LIFE expressed here for every single solitary one given to the Son by the Father as every single solitary one given by the father comes to the son and every single solitary one that comes to the Son OF THEM NONE ARE LOST but all are raised to eternal life.

This thread is not about predestination. The bible is very clear that men can turn from Him. Those who do not are His elect. We must overcome as He overcame. Read Revelation 2&3



2 John 1:9

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son


If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety




Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.




But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.



What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent


Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[DHK]

Uncertainty for who? There is no uncertainty for the obedient in Christ.

When I asked the same question to you, that I just repeated above and answered for myself, your answer (given in post #228) is this:

That is up to God not me. I did not make the plan of salvation He did. I am told to be perfect, and I am told to be pure.

There is a lot of uncertainty in that answer.
You are basically saying that your salvation is up to God. You have no assurance of salvation at all. Yet the entire theme of the first epistle of John is how a believer can be assured of their salvation. It is a good book to study.

 

[The Biblicist]

This thread is not about predestination. The bible is very clear that men can turn from Him. Those who do not are His elect.

Wrong! Note again that it is the giving by the Father that is the cause of any man coming to the Son and ALL who come NONE are lost. Hence, NONE who are given fail to come to him or fail to be ultimately saved by him - NONE!

Do you always JUMP and PIT scripture against scripture? Deal with the text I gave you. Don't respond that you did deal with it because you did not. You simply CHANGED what the text said and ignored the rest.

 

[Bob Hope]

When I asked the same question to you, that I just repeated above and answered for myself, your answer (given in post #228) is this:
There is a lot of uncertainty in that answer.
You are basically saying that your salvation is up to God. You have no assurance of salvation at all. Yet the entire theme of the first epistle of John is how a believer can be assured of their salvation. It is a good book to study.

For me only, I have full assurance. I am continuing in that faith. In regards to others wanting assurance, there is no magical prayer that gives assurance of salvation. As you desire, once in your life you had a thought that Christ was the Savior so you decided to follow Him. Now you want to assure yourself that no matter what you do, you will go to heaven. The bible does not teach that at all.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Bob Hope]

Wrong! Note again that it is the giving by the Father that is the cause of any man coming to the Son and ALL who come NONE are lost. Hence, NONE who are given fail to come to him or fail to be ultimately saved by him - NONE!

Do you always JUMP and PIT scripture against scripture? Deal with the text I gave you. Don't respond that you did deal with it because you did not. You simply CHANGED what the text said and ignored the rest.

God will keep those that do not stray. He will chasten you and bring you back if you are willing. You are free to reject Him at any time.



Hebrews 12:5-7

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?


You can fall away anytime you chose to.

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away


2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[The Biblicist]

God will keep those that do not stray. He will chasten you and bring you back if you are willing. You are free to reject Him at any time.

The text is very clear and very simple. It states clearly that ALL not merely some but ALL the father gives ALL of them come to Christ. It states very cleary that ALL who come NONE shall be lost.

You say Christ is lying as you say SOME that is given and do come are in fact
lost!

You can't deal with this text in its context so you jump to other texts that are found in different contexts in order to PIT them against this text. That is automatically admission that you do not understand any of the texts you are quoting or you would not be PITTING them against each other. The unclear are always to be interpreted by the clear and nothing can be clearer than John 6:37-40.

 

[Bob Hope]

The text is very clear and very simple. It states clearly that ALL not merely some but ALL the father gives ALL of them come to Christ. It states very cleary that ALL who come NONE shall be lost.

You say Christ is lying as you say SOME that is given and do come are in fact
lost!

You can't deal with this text in its context so you jump to other texts that are found in different contexts in order to PIT them against this text. That is automatically admission that you do not understand any of the texts you are quoting or you would not be PITTING them against each other. The unclear are always to be interpreted by the clear and nothing can be clearer than John 6:37-40.

What the rest of the bible confirms is that to be one those who "believeth", (the parts you ignore,) means to overcome, to endure until the end. To repent and do the first works. Do you deny this?

 

[The Biblicist]

What the rest of the bible confirms is that to be one those who "believeth", (the parts you ignore,) means to overcome, to endure until the end. To repent and do the first works. Do you deny this?

No it does not and none of the texts if interpreted by their context will support that idea.

I use John 6:37-40 because it not only directly addresses this very question but it cannot be perverted easily because the context is so clear.