Orthodox Christians

[The Biblicist]

The problem stems from understanding. No logical mind can rightly divide the truth of God.

That is not what the Scripture says or teaches. Indeed, no one without a rational and logical mind can rightly divide the Word of truth. The problem is not with LOGICAL thinking but with the SPIRITUAL condition of the mind which is at "enmity" with God. The failure to perceive or understand is not a problem with logic or rationality but a SPIRITUAL problem having to do with enmity and resistance. The lenses of hate ("enmity" - Rom. 8:7) provide only a distorted view.

The SPIRITUAL condition of man is one of "enmity" and love of darkness rather than light and it is through these mentally affected lenses that they attempt to perceive and understand God's Word.

So the statment "God is not the author of confusion" is not something for a rational mind or something that cannot be rationally understand?!?

God has a logical mind and everything He created reveals that. His capability is simply on a higher level (Isa. 55).

 

[Bob Hope]

Well, why hasn't he given an explanation of that passage. I have never shied away from any passage of Scripture. Here is a passage of Scripture that goes directly contrary to yours and his beliefs.

The meaning of the verse does nothing to further your point. It has more relevance to predestination than eternal security. Maybe you have a magic 8 ball that I don't know about.

 

[DHK]

The meaning of the verse does nothing to further your point. It has more relevance to predestination than eternal security. Maybe you have a magic 8 ball that I don't know about.

I am not a Calvinist, and am not here to talk about predestination. They became his sheep by believing on Christ. They remain his sheep because they have believed on him. They have been given a gift which is called eternal life. Eternal cannot become temporary. If it could then Christ would be lying. They shall never perish, another absolute. Not only that but His Father which gave them to him and is greater than all also has promised that they shall never perish.

Given those promises how can one say that they can possibly lose their salvation. It is guaranteed by Christ the moment we become one of his sheep.

 

[Bob Hope]

So the statment "God is not the author of confusion" is not something for a rational mind or something that cannot be rationally understand?!?

God is not confusing. I wonder if the Pharisees were confused? Just because God is not the author of confusion does not mean that there are no confused people.

 

[Bob Hope]

They became his sheep by believing on Christ. They remain his sheep because they have believed on him. They have been given a gift which is called eternal life. Eternal cannot become temporary. If it could then Christ would be lying. They shall never perish, another absolute. Not only that but His Father which gave them to him and is greater than all also has promised that they shall never perish.

Given those promises how can one say that they can possibly lose their salvation. It is guaranteed by Christ the moment we become one of his sheep.

You are reading all those points into that passage. They are His sheep as long as they are obedient and as long as they overcome.

 

[DHK]

You are reading all those points into that passage. They are His sheep as long as they are obedient and as long as they overcome.

That is not what it says. There are not "ifs" or "as long as" in those passages. There are no conditions whatsoever. You believe, you become a sheep, and you have eternal life.
That is why I want you to quote them and explain them. I have explained them to you. If you have a different explanation then quote the verse, and explain HOW it can have a different meaning.

 

[The Biblicist]

God is not confusing. I wonder if the Pharisees were confused? Just because God is not the author of confusion does not mean that there are no confused people.

he is providing them a principle to guide their worship service. God is not the author of confusion and thus many people speaking at once and/or without rational explanation as to what they are saying is confusion. That is a logical conclusion that even a lost person can understand.

 

[Bob Hope]

That is not what it says. There are not "ifs" or "as long as" in those passages. There are no conditions whatsoever. You believe, you become a sheep, and you have eternal life.
That is why I want you to quote them and explain them. I have explained them to you. If you have a different explanation then quote the verse, and explain HOW it can have a different meaning.

Exactly, to God there are no ifs, but unfortunately you are not God so there are ifs for you. From Gods perspective His sheep are those whom at the end of their race will have chosen Him by living the way He has asked them too. These obedient are His and no man can take them from Him. This is all from Gods view not mans. It proves nothing about the point you are making. From mans perspective we are command to be obedient.

 

[Bob Hope]

he is providing them a principle to guide their worship service. God is not the author of confusion and thus many people speaking at once and/or without rational explanation as to what they are saying is confusion. That is a logical conclusion that even a lost person can understand.

Are we talking about tongues now?

 

[The Biblicist]

Are we talking about tongues now?

I am talking about a principle that is reasonably and rationally applied and understood in its given context.

 

[Bob Hope]

I am talking about a principle that is reasonably and rationally applied and understood in its given context.

Sounds good, when where you going to begin?

 

[The Biblicist]

Sounds good, when where you going to begin?

I am dealing with four diffenent threads so I may have fogotten something. What do you mean "when where are you going to begin?" Begin what?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Bob Hope...

You posted...

Originally Posted by Bob Hope
You are reading all those points into that passage. They are His sheep as long as they are obedient and as long as they are obediant and as long as the they overcome

That is extrememly false doctrine. Its poisinous.

When a lost person is born of the Spirit the they become a child of God eternally. They never lose thier status as a Child of the King. They will not always ACT like it, (just like you an I) but the are a "forever" child of God..

Praise the Lord..because if we could lose our salvation noboby would make it.Not one person would make it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Well, why hasn't he given an explanation of that passage. I have never shied away from any passage of Scripture. Here is a passage of Scripture that goes directly contrary to yours and his beliefs.

Don't couple his beliefs and mine together. First, you don't know what I believe. Secondly, I'll tell you that I don't believe like you or him. Further, there is not one person on this forum whom I believe like. You will never be able to pigeonhole me because it is not possible.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am not a Calvinist, and am not here to talk about predestination. They became his sheep by believing on Christ. They remain his sheep because they have believed on him. They have been given a gift which is called eternal life. Eternal cannot become temporary. If it could then Christ would be lying. They shall never perish, another absolute. Not only that but His Father which gave them to him and is greater than all also has promised that they shall never perish.

Given those promises how can one say that they can possibly lose their salvation. It is guaranteed by Christ the moment we become one of his sheep.

Their status is conditional -- and the condition is their willingness and desire to continue steadfast in their faith, something they have the freedom to reject. God does not give them the freedom to accept or reject His offer of salvation before they come to faith only to take that freedom away after they come to faith. The position which holds that He does is another invention of Calvin.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Bob Hope...

You posted...



That is extrememly false doctrine. Its poisinous.

When a lost person is born of the Spirit the they become a child of God eternally. They never lose thier status as a Child of the King. They will not always ACT like it, (just like you an I) but the are a "forever" child of God..

Praise the Lord..because if we could lose our salvation noboby would make it.Not one person would make it.

Absolutely untrue; I have to disagree with you here, my friend. But it is not a matter of "losing" salvation; it is a matter of willfully rejecting it -- and we are able to do that. God does not perform a spiritual lobotomy and remove the will after a person comes to faith.

So, you believe God does not compel anyone to come to faith, but once someone does, God compels them to stay faithful? There is no scripture that attributes such a thing to God's character.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Sounds good, when where you going to begin?

:laugh: :laugh:

Hang in, Bob Hope, and keep that sense of humor and wit. It might just save you here.

 

[DHK]

Absolutely untrue; I have to disagree with you here, my friend. But it is not a matter of "losing" salvation; it is a matter of willfully rejecting it -- and we are able to do that. God does not perform a spiritual lobotomy and remove the will after a person comes to faith.

So, you believe God does not compel anyone to come to faith, but once someone does, God compels them to stay faithful? There is no scripture that attributes such a thing to God's character.

One of your many problems is in the definition of words. You will take a word, universally accepted by the entire community of orthodox Christianity, and at your own whim and will change the meaning. Sorry to say, but that is what cults do and that is how they start. It is difficult to discuss "eternal life" when one has redefined the word "eternal" and doesn't believe in "eternal" or that "eternal" even exists.

However, using the traditional and accepted definition of eternal, forever and ever, the gift of eternal life is given to the believer at the time of salvation. It is a promise of Christ (John 5:24; 10:27-30). If it is a gift given to those that believe on him then they already have it in their possession. It cannot be taken away. If it could be taken away or even lost or rejected as you suggest, then eternal would not be eternal. It would only be temporary, and Christ would found to be a liar.

That one argument is so simple I don't know how any one can reject it. If he gives eternal life then he gives eternal life. Does he lie?

 

[DHK]

Their status is conditional -- and the condition is their willingness and desire to continue steadfast in their faith, something they have the freedom to reject. God does not give them the freedom to accept or reject His offer of salvation before they come to faith only to take that freedom away after they come to faith. The position which holds that He does is another invention of Calvin.

That is an opinion and remains as such until you can defend it with Scripture. I don't see it in the Bible, and have never seen it in the Bible. It is a novelty.

 

[DHK]

Don't couple his beliefs and mine together. First, you don't know what I believe. Secondly, I'll tell you that I don't believe like you or him. Further, there is not one person on this forum whom I believe like. You will never be able to pigeonhole me because it is not possible.

I never suggested that you believe exactly like him, however you do believe like him in the sense that you both don't believe in eternal security.

I know exactly what you believe, in that your statement of faith is succinctly written on your web-page. And you are right, there is no one here who would agree with it in all points.