Orthodox Christians

[Bob Hope]

Are you claiming to be perfect?

Do you know the difference between perfect and pure?



1 John 3:3

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


James 1:27

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


Matthew 5:8

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[DHK]

Do you know the difference between perfect and pure?

1 John 3:3

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


James 1:27

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


Matthew 5:8

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Yes I do, but apparently you don't.

The Greek word for "pure" is "hagnos" and means just what it says: "pure" or clean, modest.

The Greek word in Mat.5:48 for "perfect" is teleios, meaning "perfect" or "complete."

I ask you again: Are you perfect?

 

[Bob Hope]

Yes I do, but apparently you don't.

The Greek word for "pure" is "hagnos" and means just what it says: "pure" or clean, modest.

The Greek word in Mat.5:48 for "perfect" is teleios, meaning "perfect" or "complete."

I ask you again: Are you perfect?

I can walk perfectly and I can purify my mind. Therefore the Father sees me as perfect. So to answer your yes. Will I always stay perfect? That is something I must work at, I must be faithful unto death. I must repent of sin, and I must overcome as He overcame. I must watch for Him and I must not deny His name. This is what must done to be saved.

 

[The Biblicist]

It's so simple. We must be diligent to keep pure.


1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Pure from what? Sins of commission or sins of omission? Are you telling me that at the point of confession you are in your own person as pure as God is in His own Person. If that were true then why does John, who you are quoting, use the present tense claiming he was not without sin at the point of his writing and he was at that point filled or under the power of the Holy Spirit so that what he wrote was inspired by God.

You are missing the entire point! To be without sins of ommission is to be sinless. Is that what you mean by "pure" because sinless is what it means to be without sins of omission as sins of ommisson is coming short of God's glory which is sinlessness?

Tell me, one second after you confess your sins and you are forgiven, are you in your own person not coming short of the glory of God - sinless? We can keep oursevles "pure" confessing known sins of commission but in order to be "pure" from sins of omission one must be sinless. Are you claiming that confession changes your human nature/condition from sinful to sinless so that you can continue for one second of your existence sinless as God in your own person?

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you know the difference between perfect and pure?



1 John 3:3

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


James 1:27

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


Matthew 5:8

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Do you know the difference between being sinful by nature versus committing sins? Being sinful by nature denies it is possible to be "pure" by nature or be without sin by nature. In other words, no amount of confession will change your sinful nature to a sinless nature but that is precisely what must occur for you to be AT ANY TIME without sins of ommission. Apart from glorification you EXIST in a state of coming short of sinlessness which is what acheiving the glorying of God is rather than coming short of that glory. Confessing and cleansing does not change what you are by nature - a sinner - one who always has, always will come short of the glory of God by nature until that sin nature is removed by glorification. Cleansing merely restores fellowship with God but it does not change who you are by nature - one whose life always comes short of the glory of God.

 

[DHK]

I can walk perfectly and I can purify my mind. Therefore the Father sees me as perfect. So to answer your yes. Will I always stay perfect? That is something I must work at, I must be faithful unto death. I must repent of sin, and I must overcome as He overcame. I must watch for Him and I must not deny His name. This is what must done to be saved.

If you must repent of sin, then it goes without saying that you have sinned and thus need repentance. Suppose you have a sudden heart attack and die before you are able to repent of said sin, are you assured of going to heaven?

 

[Bob Hope]

Pure from what? Sins of commission or sins of omission? Are you telling me that at the point of confession you are in your own person as pure as God is in His own Person. If that were true then why does John, who you are quoting, use the present tense claiming he was not without sin at the point of his writing and he was at that point filled or under the power of the Holy Spirit so that what he wrote was inspired by God.

You are missing the entire point! To be without sins of ommission is to be sinless. Is that what you mean by "pure" because sinless is what it means to be without sins of omission as sins of ommisson is coming short of God's glory which is sinlessness?

Tell me, one second after you confess your sins and you are forgiven, are you in your own person not coming short of the glory of God - sinless? We can keep oursevles "pure" confessing known sins of commission but in order to be "pure" from sins of omission one must be sinless. Are you claiming that confession changes your human nature/condition from sinful to sinless so that you can continue for one second of your existence sinless as God in your own person?

I did not write the scripture. You can ask God what He means by pure.

 

[Bob Hope]

If you must repent of sin, then it goes without saying that you have sinned and thus need repentance. Suppose you have a sudden heart attack and die before you are able to repent of said sin, are you assured of going to heaven?

That is up to God not me. I did not make the plan of salvation He did. I am told to be perfect, and I am told to be pure.

 

[The Biblicist]

I did not write the scripture. You can ask God what He means by pure.

Pure does not mean God changes your nature from sinful to sinless as 1 John 1:8 proves. However, that would necessarily be the case if "pure" meant you no longer by nature come short of the glory of God or that your personal life had acheived sinlessness.

Pure does not mean that any aspect of your life acheives sinlessness. It means only that the lack of sinlessness which characterizes every aspect of your life does not block blessings and fellowship with God.

 

[DHK]

That is up to God not me. I did not make the plan of salvation He did.

Every religion in the world, except for Christianity is a religion of works.
Christianity alone is by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works. Salvation is a gift, freely to be received, never to be worked for. Otherwise it would not be a gift, nor would it be by grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Grace and works cannot mix. Salvation is by the grace of God. It cannot be of works because it is of grace. Once one says it is of works, then it is no more of grace. The two don't mix.

Likewise with faith:
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In verse five it plainly says that it is the one that does no work, but simply believes, that is the one that is justified. He was speaking about Abraham but now applies it to all. All who believe by faith alone are justified.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham believed God and therefore he was made righteous before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--It is so much clearer here. We are justified by faith. It is not faith plus works, it is just faith and faith alone.

This is what the Scriptures say about salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

They are not complicated. The message is very simple.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is up to God not me. I did not make the plan of salvation He did. I am told to be perfect, and I am told to be pure.

It seems that John was writing about you when he said,

"If we say we HAVE NO SIN we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

He includes himself "we" and uses the present tense and denies that we can be "perfect" IN THE SENSE OF SINLESSNESS! (the term "perfect" is used to describe saved sinners as "mature" not sinless). He says those like you who think they can are deceived.

 

[The Biblicist]

It seems that John was writing about you when he said,

"If we say we HAVE NO SIN we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

He includes himself "we" and uses the present tense and denies that we can be "perfect" IN THE SENSE OF SINLESSNESS! (the term "perfect" is used to describe saved sinners as "mature" not sinless). He says those like you who think they can are deceived.

Forgiveness does not altar or change the past life from coming short of the glory of God unto acheiving the glory of God any more than forgiveness changes your sinful nature to a sinless nature but rather is further admission that your own personal life (past, present and future) still comes short of the glory of God now and will still come short on the day of judgement.

 

[Bob Hope]

Every religion in the world, except for Christianity is a religion of works.
Christianity alone is by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works. Salvation is a gift, freely to be received, never to be worked for. Otherwise it would not be a gift, nor would it be by grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Grace and works cannot mix. Salvation is by the grace of God. It cannot be of works because it is of grace. Once one says it is of works, then it is no more of grace. The two don't mix.

Likewise with faith:
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In verse five it plainly says that it is the one that does no work, but simply believes, that is the one that is justified. He was speaking about Abraham but now applies it to all. All who believe by faith alone are justified.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham believed God and therefore he was made righteous before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--It is so much clearer here. We are justified by faith. It is not faith plus works, it is just faith and faith alone.

This is what the Scriptures say about salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

They are not complicated. The message is very simple.

So it would seem the difference between us is that you use Pauls message and I am using Christs.

 

[Bob Hope]

It seems that John was writing about you when he said,

"If we say we HAVE NO SIN we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

He includes himself "we" and uses the present tense and denies that we can be "perfect" IN THE SENSE OF SINLESSNESS! (the term "perfect" is used to describe saved sinners as "mature" not sinless). He says those like you who think they can are deceived.

LOL, he was talking about people who claim they have no sin in need of forgiveness.

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL, he was talking about people who claim they have no sin in need of forgiveness.

Is English a foreign language to you? He said "WE" not "YE"! Last time I looked "we" is a first person plural pronoun that includes the speaker or writer.

Second, he never said they have "no sin IN NEED OF FORGIVENESS"! That is your addition to God's Word. What else will you change to suit your false doctrines?

Do you really think this is the only text that teaches that saved people are not without sin?

 

[The Biblicist]

So it would seem the difference between us is that you use Pauls message and I am using Christs.

Paul wrote by inspiration and was an inspired interpeter of Jesus:

Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So the real difference is not between Christ and Paul (as though they disagreed with each other) but between you and Paul! I will take Paul any day!

 

[Bob Hope]

Is English a foreign language to you? He said "WE" not "YE"! Last time I looked "we" is a first person plural pronoun that includes the speaker or writer.

Second, he never said they have "no sin IN NEED OF FORGIVENESS"! That is your addition to God's Word. What else will you change to suit your false doctrines?

Do you really think this is the only text that teaches that saved people are not without sin?

Grasping at straws? Is that the best you got? He is saying that we all start out in need to forgiveness, himself included.

 

[Bob Hope]

Paul wrote by inspiration and was an inspired interpeter of Jesus:

Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So the real difference is not between Christ and Paul (as though they disagreed with each other) but between you and Paul! I will take Paul any day!

If his letters are the inspired word why does he disagree with Christ on salvation?

 

[The Biblicist]

If his letters are the inspired word why does he disagree with Christ on salvation?

he doesn't! He disagrees with YOUR INTERPRETATION of Christ on salvation! When you are forced to PIT Christ aganst Paul the true source of your doctrine is exposed - 1 Tim. 4:1.

 

[The Biblicist]

Grasping at straws? Is that the best you got? He is saying that we all start out in need to forgiveness, himself included.

First you say he is talking about others and now you admit he includes himself. You first ADD words that are not there and now you are trying to twist his words to say something he simply just does not say and you claim I am grasping at straws?????laugh:

He does not say "we start out" but rather if we say we "HAVE NO SIN" and that is precisely what you are teaching. You said you can be perfect and that your are perfect until you fall from your perfection. That is saying you "HAVE NO SIN." The present tense does not refer to the past or the future but is linear action.

Why don't you just write your own Bible to suite your own doctrine and then quote it (that is what you are doing anyway).