Y
Yelsew
Guest
Frogman, if you have been reading my posts, you should have noticed that I never introduce a concept without explaining it. Why do you think Immaculate Conception would be any different?
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Y
Yelsew
Guest
Jude,
It is refreshing to note the examples you gave, and they are readily understandable.
The point I'm trying to get across is that belief is a strictly human condition that requires no work on the part of the human. One either believes in an "anything" or one does not. Believing in Jesus is no different for the human being. All the same things happen in the human for believing in Jesus as with believing a chair will hold them and not spill them to the floor. Believing is believing, and it is a strictly human condition.
That said, there are many things, entities, environments, and other conditions that influence one's beliefs, and whether or not one believes.
Faith is belief reinforced and belief sustained. Faith is an ongoing condition of belief.
It is refreshing to note the examples you gave, and they are readily understandable.
The point I'm trying to get across is that belief is a strictly human condition that requires no work on the part of the human. One either believes in an "anything" or one does not. Believing in Jesus is no different for the human being. All the same things happen in the human for believing in Jesus as with believing a chair will hold them and not spill them to the floor. Believing is believing, and it is a strictly human condition.
That said, there are many things, entities, environments, and other conditions that influence one's beliefs, and whether or not one believes.
Faith is belief reinforced and belief sustained. Faith is an ongoing condition of belief.
Forgive me Yelsew, I do read your posts and any post in any thread I am involved in.
I did not mean to imply that the failure would always be on your part of explanation. The point I was wanting to make is that someone weak in the faith having heard your discussion of the immaculate conception and attmepting to discuss it in another environment, say at work in a factory break room or something. And at this time and place there is a Catholic who is able to bring the centuries of Catholic teaching on the topic and offer scripture may be the factor that results in greater harm than good.
That is all that I meant.
While I appreciate your attempts to put these things in a more common vernacular, I think we should always recognize the difficulty in doing these things.
Having said that I want to say that I still cannot believe that anyone having tasted of the truth through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can ever lose or forget that, this is what makes eternal life eternal. While much of what you discuss about human nature is obviously true, it still must be evident to you that depravity has a much stronger hold on humans than you have admitted to the present time.
I believe that to focus so much on human ability to believe or not to believe is to belittle this and in the mind of many there is not the desired effect of urgency as many Arminians wish to relate to their hearers.
That is all.
Bro. Dallas
I did not mean to imply that the failure would always be on your part of explanation. The point I was wanting to make is that someone weak in the faith having heard your discussion of the immaculate conception and attmepting to discuss it in another environment, say at work in a factory break room or something. And at this time and place there is a Catholic who is able to bring the centuries of Catholic teaching on the topic and offer scripture may be the factor that results in greater harm than good.
That is all that I meant.
While I appreciate your attempts to put these things in a more common vernacular, I think we should always recognize the difficulty in doing these things.
Having said that I want to say that I still cannot believe that anyone having tasted of the truth through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can ever lose or forget that, this is what makes eternal life eternal. While much of what you discuss about human nature is obviously true, it still must be evident to you that depravity has a much stronger hold on humans than you have admitted to the present time.
I believe that to focus so much on human ability to believe or not to believe is to belittle this and in the mind of many there is not the desired effect of urgency as many Arminians wish to relate to their hearers.
That is all.
Bro. Dallas
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Artimus;
Unless you're a Jew you're not born into this family. you're adopted and can be disowned. Weather or not you're born in it or adopted. It's true no man can pluck you out of the hand of God but there is nothing that says we can't be cast out by God himself or leave on our own.
May God bless you.
Mike
It's true we can't unring a bell but we're not talking about bells.
Unless you're a Jew you're not born into this family. you're adopted and can be disowned. Weather or not you're born in it or adopted. It's true no man can pluck you out of the hand of God but there is nothing that says we can't be cast out by God himself or leave on our own.
May God bless you.
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Frogman;
May God bless you.
Mike
You're right he wasn't saved how could he have been saved when Christ hadn't paid for our sins yet. But on the other hand he was "elected" Chosen by Christ himself to be His follower or disciple. Yet he was not saved. Seems like election is conditional,if we are given to Christ upon our election.
May God bless you.
Mike
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I acknowledge your position Frogman, and you are certainly welcome to it. However, before one can consider that depravity of any magnitude can have the affect of "totality" that you insist it has, one must consider the end result of how God made man. Consider what the "image of God" truly means. Consider all the attributes of God, the capabilities, and actual abilities that He gave us that are like those He Himself possesses. Sin did not invert any of that, making it bad as opposed to the "Good" that God himself called his created man.
Consider that all through scripture man is given the choice between good and evil, obedience and disobedience, right and wrong. Consider what was done in Adam's disobedience to the command of God. Through the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil Adam acquired the knowledge of good and evil. That knowledge became an inherent part of mankind henceforth.
Having that knowledge does not make man depraved. Choosing evil over good does introduce depravity to man. We out of our own ability to choose are drawn to evil, because it is the opposite of how God made us, and the old law of physics holds true, "likes repel while opposites attract". We are made good, but choose bad.
Sin separated man from God in a manner that one can only assume God intended, since God put man into the place where he cast Satan and his demons. I'm sure that God did not forget what He did with, or where he sent Lucifer and his 1/3 of the angels that followed Him. He cast them down from heaven to the earth.
So the struggle between good and evil is the struggle we find ourselves in. Whether or not we choose to be in that struggle, we are because God Himself put us here, with all the attributes and capabilities that he gave us. It is our choices in this environement that determine where we spend eternity.
"I have given you the choices of Life and Death, choose life!" This is the message that God tells us throughout scripture. Throughout scripture good and evil are defined and described. The consequences of both are provided for our guidence. We have no excuses if we do not choose life, and yes the choice is ours to make.
Consider that all through scripture man is given the choice between good and evil, obedience and disobedience, right and wrong. Consider what was done in Adam's disobedience to the command of God. Through the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil Adam acquired the knowledge of good and evil. That knowledge became an inherent part of mankind henceforth.
Having that knowledge does not make man depraved. Choosing evil over good does introduce depravity to man. We out of our own ability to choose are drawn to evil, because it is the opposite of how God made us, and the old law of physics holds true, "likes repel while opposites attract". We are made good, but choose bad.
Sin separated man from God in a manner that one can only assume God intended, since God put man into the place where he cast Satan and his demons. I'm sure that God did not forget what He did with, or where he sent Lucifer and his 1/3 of the angels that followed Him. He cast them down from heaven to the earth.
So the struggle between good and evil is the struggle we find ourselves in. Whether or not we choose to be in that struggle, we are because God Himself put us here, with all the attributes and capabilities that he gave us. It is our choices in this environement that determine where we spend eternity.
"I have given you the choices of Life and Death, choose life!" This is the message that God tells us throughout scripture. Throughout scripture good and evil are defined and described. The consequences of both are provided for our guidence. We have no excuses if we do not choose life, and yes the choice is ours to make.
Where does the Bible say God will cast away any of his children or that any one of them will walk away? In this we may not be talking about bells, but we are not talking about anything physical either. As to being born into the family of the Jews, this is not what made any one of them eternally saved, the Bible does not teach that either. On the contrary, Paul teaches that the wall of partition between the Jew and the Gentile has been removed.
Concerning Christ's completion of the atonement you are right, it had not been physically completed. However, as he stood as the lamb slain before the foundation of the world it was completed in the purpose of God.
God Bless
Bro. Dallas
Concerning Christ's completion of the atonement you are right, it had not been physically completed. However, as he stood as the lamb slain before the foundation of the world it was completed in the purpose of God.
God Bless
Bro. Dallas
In order to cause what you say to be true you must realize that a person is not choosing but obeying. In order for the choice to be fulfilled completely the person must not fail to obey the whole law.
Under Grace however we have the knowledge the purpose of the Law is to serve as our school master, to frustrate us in our efforts to choose good as we continually find ourselves marking our list of strengths and ignoring or self justifying our weaknesses.
In Christ we are said to be at rest. This means we are completely reconciled to God. We no longer have to labor to make that choice, but we find our strength in the Grace that is in Christ Jesus alone.
Any other way is a way of works and does not work.
Bro. Dallas
Under Grace however we have the knowledge the purpose of the Law is to serve as our school master, to frustrate us in our efforts to choose good as we continually find ourselves marking our list of strengths and ignoring or self justifying our weaknesses.
In Christ we are said to be at rest. This means we are completely reconciled to God. We no longer have to labor to make that choice, but we find our strength in the Grace that is in Christ Jesus alone.
Any other way is a way of works and does not work.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Choosing is obeying! God said, "I have set before you Death and Life, therefore choose life" By choosing life one obeys God, by not choosing life one automatically chooses death, the only other option.
Choosing life is the only active participation man has in his salvation. Every other aspect of salvation is an accomplished work of God. Man cannot touch even one iota of that work already accomplished. Even so, God leaves that one single choice to man, and the majority cannot get it right.
Choosing life is the only active participation man has in his salvation. Every other aspect of salvation is an accomplished work of God. Man cannot touch even one iota of that work already accomplished. Even so, God leaves that one single choice to man, and the majority cannot get it right.
Yelsew,
The scripture you are discussing and the topic you are tying to it is speaking of obeying [performing] all the commands of the law and not letting even a small one fail to be obeyed. It is this that man cannot do.
Consider how that Christ said that even to look upon a woman and to lust after her was equal to committing adultery in the heart. This is not about something that we can or cannot do subconsciously, because there are thoughts, different depending on each individual, that we have pass through our minds that amount to sin to God. This is why we are totally depraved because every fiber of our being has been affected by the fall of Adam. If there was ever the remote possibility for man to have chosen anything good then Christ would not have stood as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, nor would he have had to come in time and fulfill that covenant he made with the Father.
Bro. Dallas
The scripture you are discussing and the topic you are tying to it is speaking of obeying [performing] all the commands of the law and not letting even a small one fail to be obeyed. It is this that man cannot do.
Consider how that Christ said that even to look upon a woman and to lust after her was equal to committing adultery in the heart. This is not about something that we can or cannot do subconsciously, because there are thoughts, different depending on each individual, that we have pass through our minds that amount to sin to God. This is why we are totally depraved because every fiber of our being has been affected by the fall of Adam. If there was ever the remote possibility for man to have chosen anything good then Christ would not have stood as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, nor would he have had to come in time and fulfill that covenant he made with the Father.
Bro. Dallas
Adam knew "about" knowledge yet was impossible for him to prove anything he aquired to be corrrect or not, for in his aquisition of this knowledge he sinned and forever seperated himself from God and identified his spirit opposite of Gods.
he not only aquired this knowledge "about" good and evil. but also aquired a spirit that is opposite and against, or in competition of God.
a cursed or "dead" spirit.
A spirit that cannot see, hear, or understand anything of spiritual truths of God. Good or evil.
any knowledge aquired of Adam from God would only come to mankind through HIS perceptions FROM his cursed carnal mind and spirit.
to choose good. one has to be able to aquire knowledge of Good specifically from God. to exibit the ability to identify it as Good.
only by possessing a "new" righteous spirit of God can one identify, (see, hear,) and understand correctly the knowledge from God, of Good and evil.
this spirit was given to mankind 4000 years AFTER adams death. knowledge of Good and evil in mankind didnt exist until Jesus died and it was distributed to mankind by the holy spirit.
comprehending and understanding that one is "saved" can only be "proven by the knowledge" within the believer who posesses this new spirit.
From a "new" spirit that is "within" them and never to leave them...OSAS
Me2
he not only aquired this knowledge "about" good and evil. but also aquired a spirit that is opposite and against, or in competition of God.
a cursed or "dead" spirit.
A spirit that cannot see, hear, or understand anything of spiritual truths of God. Good or evil.
any knowledge aquired of Adam from God would only come to mankind through HIS perceptions FROM his cursed carnal mind and spirit.
to choose good. one has to be able to aquire knowledge of Good specifically from God. to exibit the ability to identify it as Good.
only by possessing a "new" righteous spirit of God can one identify, (see, hear,) and understand correctly the knowledge from God, of Good and evil.
this spirit was given to mankind 4000 years AFTER adams death. knowledge of Good and evil in mankind didnt exist until Jesus died and it was distributed to mankind by the holy spirit.
comprehending and understanding that one is "saved" can only be "proven by the knowledge" within the believer who posesses this new spirit.
From a "new" spirit that is "within" them and never to leave them...OSAS
Me2
Pastor Gary
New Member
A simple thought for a complex issue.
Did God force you to become a Christian against your will?
I’m assuming that you answered no.
Then doesn’t the converse apply as well?
In other words, if you wish to no longer be a Christian, will God force you to stay a Christian against your will?
Did God force you to become a Christian against your will?
I’m assuming that you answered no.
Then doesn’t the converse apply as well?
In other words, if you wish to no longer be a Christian, will God force you to stay a Christian against your will?
We are chosen for a purpose of our maker.
we become obedient or disobedient according to our response towards his will.
both choices wether to follow or to compete against his plans for mankind are in HIS determined will.
it is not a matter of wether we can choose to accept his impartation of his spirit within us. that choice of accepting of denying the impartation is not at our disposal.
its the reponse on our part after the impartation of wether we become obedient or disobedient within his plans.
but alas of the two groups. those who desire to live by Gods law and depend on their own capabilities of pleasing God,
or the second possibility of abandoning all hope of living by the dictates of a cursed mindset of rules and humbling ourselves in front of a mercyful God.
by living by the law, some are blinded much as adam was. not able to rectify within our beings of wether God actually loves us as we are.
some cannot understand why he would continue to accept us if we continually fail before him.
thus OSAS is not comprehendable to some.
we become obedient or disobedient according to our response towards his will.
both choices wether to follow or to compete against his plans for mankind are in HIS determined will.
it is not a matter of wether we can choose to accept his impartation of his spirit within us. that choice of accepting of denying the impartation is not at our disposal.
its the reponse on our part after the impartation of wether we become obedient or disobedient within his plans.
but alas of the two groups. those who desire to live by Gods law and depend on their own capabilities of pleasing God,
or the second possibility of abandoning all hope of living by the dictates of a cursed mindset of rules and humbling ourselves in front of a mercyful God.
by living by the law, some are blinded much as adam was. not able to rectify within our beings of wether God actually loves us as we are.
some cannot understand why he would continue to accept us if we continually fail before him.
thus OSAS is not comprehendable to some.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
The responce for the OSAS group would be Yes, because God never leaves us nor forsakes us, hense OSAS. The problem with that point of view is that God's promise is just that, His promise. We do not make such a promise and truly cannot, and we can leave and forsake God.
For the Calvinist, the response would be "if you are an Elect, you have no choice, therefore you can neither prevent God from saving you, nor can you escape God, thus OSAS". The problem with that is it simply is not supportable in scripture.
And for the Calvinist, unless you are an elect, you cannot be saved! So, why worry mate?
For the Calvinist, the response would be "if you are an Elect, you have no choice, therefore you can neither prevent God from saving you, nor can you escape God, thus OSAS". The problem with that is it simply is not supportable in scripture.
And for the Calvinist, unless you are an elect, you cannot be saved! So, why worry mate?
I don't worry mate.
In fact Yelsew, I have been thinking about this discussion this afternoon and I have discovered that you and I are in full agreement.
You believe that man can choose salvation and therefore you believe man can choose to be unsaved.
I believe that man is totally depraved and unable to choose anything good in the sight of God, {all our righteousness is as dirty rags}. In other words, even if I could choose to be saved, then I would do so and would do so with my own eternal well-being in view and apart from the thought of the Glory of God and even of my Saviour. Therefore even my choosing would be a sin, or at the very least sinful.
Because I believe man cannot choose to be saved therefore I also believe that man cannot lose that salvation, either by coercion nor by free choice. What makes us in agreement is the fact that we each remain consistent with our beliefs.
You are absolutely correct, if man could choose eternal life, he most certainly would be capable of choosing to 'unchoose' it. But because man is not capable of accomplishing this, he is equally not able to lay it down, forget it, or walk away from it.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Frogman, you certainly do a lot of twistin'. are you sure you're not a politician?
Pastor Gary
New Member
And now for some of God's simplicity.
According to Scripture, it is possible to:
drift away (Heb. 2:1)
wander away (Mt. 18:12,13)
wander away from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
lose your saltiness (Lk. 14:34,35)
fall away (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk. 8:13)
turn away from the faith (Mt. 24:10)
wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim. 1:5,6)
turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)
leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15)
be like a branch that is thrown away and withers (Jn. 15:6)
go astray (Jn. 16:1)
turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
depart from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1)
turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim. 4:4)
acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet. 3:17)
be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb. 13:9)
And this is just the New Testament.
According to Scripture, it is possible to:
drift away (Heb. 2:1)
wander away (Mt. 18:12,13)
wander away from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
lose your saltiness (Lk. 14:34,35)
fall away (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk. 8:13)
turn away from the faith (Mt. 24:10)
wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim. 1:5,6)
turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)
leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15)
be like a branch that is thrown away and withers (Jn. 15:6)
go astray (Jn. 16:1)
turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
depart from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1)
turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim. 4:4)
acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet. 3:17)
be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb. 13:9)
And this is just the New Testament.
There is no twisting in my post. I simply presented scripture that shows the law is given for the unrighteous and not the holy. Therefore, the law being given that all men should observe it there cannot be any that are any wit righteous.
Bro. Gary, if I thought that anyone of God's children could be lost I would not tell anyone of it, I am certain there is not one of us that can hold our position for a second apart from Grace.
That is the essence of this disagreement brethren as I show above. As you believe men may choose, then it is logical that man is also able to unchoose.
If life through Christ is eternal then it cannot be changed, lost or removed.
Bro. Gary, if I thought that anyone of God's children could be lost I would not tell anyone of it, I am certain there is not one of us that can hold our position for a second apart from Grace.
That is the essence of this disagreement brethren as I show above. As you believe men may choose, then it is logical that man is also able to unchoose.
If life through Christ is eternal then it cannot be changed, lost or removed.
This portion of scripture alone disproves your belief; it isn't even given in its entirety. Vs. 4-6 expressly teaches opposite of what you are trying to press upon it:
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Jesus said that whosoever believeth (have sustained belief) in Him shall have {future tense) everlasting life. He that believeth (have sustained belief) not is condemned by his/her own unbelief. Therefore, if one comes to belief and does not sustain that belief an/or changes one's mind, thus losing that belief that results in everlasting life. One then condemns one's self by losing that belief.
Belief is a totally human condition. No other species of life is credited with, or required to have belief in order to fulfill God's will. It is strictly a human condition that according to scriptures can, and does change in accordance with what the human accepts in him/herself.
Eternal life is true only to those who believe of their own accord and sustain that belief to the end of this natural life and into eternal life.