OT law

[canadyjd]

Under the law of the OT there was some very serious punishment for certain crimes against others. Do you believe that God was being too severe in the calling for the death penalty for such crimes as.....

First, the reason many don't want to answer you directly, imho, is that it is offensive/arrogant to believe we have the right to pass judgment on what God has done.

We have no right to say "yes, God was being too severe... or no, God was not being too severe..." because we have no right to pass judgment upon God.

That being said, it seems you may not be articulating very well the question you are trying to ask.

You appear to be asking "Since God prescribed capital punishment for various offenses in the O.T., (murder, adultery, homose*uality, striking a parent, and rape among others) shouldn't we practice capital punishment for those offenses today?

Please correct me if I am wrong. If that is what you are asking, then the direct answer is "no" because Jesus changed the terms for administering the death penalty in John 8. It is no longer the "two or three" witnesses that cast the first stone (administer the death penalty), it is the "one who is without sin". Since God is the only one without sin, only God can administer the death penalty.

Also should we have the same standards today or has God changed in how He feels about such things?

I don't believe that God has changed the way He feels about such things. God has obviously changed the way He deals with people today, in the Light of His Son and the revelation which He has given us.

God doesn't deal with us the same way as He dealt with the Jews under the Law.

And one more thought. The Apostle Paul is clear that if you desire to live under the Law, then you have to keep the whole Law..., not just the part you have a particular interest in keeping.

As far as the death penalty goes, Christians should not support the death penalty, as it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

[Iconoclast]

The death penalty is scriptural. jn 8 does not negate it

 

[canadyjd]

The death penalty is scriptural. jn 8 does not negate it

I disagree. Jesus changed the requirements for implementing the death penalty in John 8, that is plain in the context.

Beyond that, as Christians, we are commanded to have "perfect patience" when dealing with the worst of sinners. Putting them to death, or supporting their deaths, violates that command..., therefore, supporting the death penalty is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

First, the reason many don't want to answer you directly, imho, is that it is offensive/arrogant to believe we have the right to pass judgment on what God has done.

We have no right to say "yes, God was being too severe... or no, God was not being too severe..." because we have no right to pass judgment upon God.

That being said, it seems you may not be articulating very well the question you are trying to ask.

You appear to be asking "Since God prescribed capital punishment for various offenses in the O.T., (murder, adultery, homose*uality, striking a parent, and rape among others) shouldn't we practice capital punishment for those offenses today?

Please correct me if I am wrong. If that is what you are asking, then the direct answer is "no" because Jesus changed the terms for administering the death penalty in John 8. It is no longer the "two or three" witnesses that cast the first stone (administer the death penalty), it is the "one who is without sin". Since God is the only one without sin, only God can administer the death penalty.I don't believe that God has changed the way He feels about such things. God has obviously changed the way He deals with people today, in the Light of His Son and the revelation which He has given us.

God doesn't deal with us the same way as He dealt with the Jews under the Law.

And one more thought. The Apostle Paul is clear that if you desire to live under the Law, then you have to keep the whole Law..., not just the part you have a particular interest in keeping.

As far as the death penalty goes, Christians should not support the death penalty, as it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

peace to youraying:

To answer your question, no I intended to post the way I posted it. I have a different idea as to why some are struggling to answer directly. Some actually feel that God's law was out of line. However to say it literally they might be seen a anti-God. Some others are on the fence and waiting for someone to state that God went overboard so they too can get with the crowd. There is comfort in numbers.
Then there is the self righteous who claim to ask such a question is blasphemy which is hypocritical because many who claim to be Christian live as if God was too strict.

Your interpretation of what Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 8 about the woman took in adultery is interesting. Jesus changed the law. Now that would contradict the very words of Jesus. He said He did not come to do away (destroy) the law yet you say He did. Oh yea, One more thing. Did you know that the passages from John 7:53 to John 8:11 are most likely not in the origiunal text. If you have a KJV and it is a study bible it should explain that to you. So most likely this story never really happened. That would mean you have no proof text if it did mean what you said, but it did not.

I would remind you that Jesus is and was the OT God who gave the law to began with. As for Paul saying that if we want to keep part of the law we have to keep it all. He never said that.
James did say;
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
The point being that if we seek our righteous from law we need to keep it all. It is not suggest that we are no longer to keep God's moral commands.
Now that being said all this law keeping is about being saved, not about honoring the Lord in how He feels about how we should seek to govern ourselves which is what I am asking. So no the death penality was not against the teachings of Jesus.

 

[freeatlast]

The death penalty is scriptural. jn 8 does not negate it

Very true! :thumbs: While we should never find comfort or joy over it we should be willing to obey the commands of the One who instituted it rather then seek scripture to twist to our own desires. One great miss-understanding is that the death penality came through the law. it did not. it came before the law at the time of cane and able and remained under the law and expanded as well as now under the NT.

 

[Iconoclast]

I disagree. Jesus changed the requirements for implementing the death penalty in John 8, that is plain in the context.

Beyond that, as Christians, we are commanded to have "perfect patience" when dealing with the worst of sinners. Putting them to death, or supporting their deaths, violates that command..., therefore, supporting the death penalty is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

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What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Question: "What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?"

Answer: The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).

How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes.

 

[freeatlast]

Home


What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Question: "What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?"

Answer: The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).

How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes.

By the way we are the government in this country and we are the ones who are to express our desires to our representative as to what laws to pass.
I am just trying to get some clarification here. Are you saying that since God stated what crimes should be punished by the death penalty then we as Christians today should support and seek the same standards?

 

[canadyjd]

... I agree that some actually feel that God's law was out of line....

Just to be clear, I didn't make any such statement for you to "agree" with me.

Then there is the self righteous who claim to ask such a question is blasphemy which is hypocritical because many who claim to be Christian live as if God was too strict.

You should be careful not to presume to know what is in someone's heart or the motivations they have for their beliefs. To call them "self-righteous" for pointing out the obvious (men don't get to judge God's actions) is high-handed on your part.

Your interpretation of what Jesus said to the Pharisees about the woman took in adultery is interesting. Jesus changed the law. Now that would contradict the very words of Jesus. He said He did not come to do away (destroy) the law yet you say He did.

Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder'..... (22) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;..."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery', (28) But I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

Matt. 5:33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord'" (34) But I say to you, make no oath at all....."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

John 8:7 "But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and siad to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.'"

Jesus isn't just trying to embarrass them. He is making a direct reference to the O.T. Law concerning the implementation of the death penalty.

Deut. 17:6-7 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. (7) The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people..." (my bold for emphasis, not yelling)

Jesus changes the law for implementing the death penalty. Instead of 2 or three witnesses being the first to cast the stones (implementing the death penalty), it is the "he who is without sin" who implements the death penalty.

That leaves only God to implement the death penalty, since only God is sinless.

As for Paul saying that if we want to keep part of the law we have to keep it all. He never said that.

Gal: 5:3 "And I testify again to everyone man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law..."

If you keep one part of the Law, you are obligated to keep it all.

....So no the death penality was not against the teachings of Jesus.

Yes, it is.

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Paul has just stated He considers himself the foremost of all sinners. Paul was a murderer of Christians by his own admission.

This passage is very clear and very specific. Jesus gave all future believers an example to live by concerning our attitudes toward the worst of sinners. That example was one of perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

To support the death penalty violates this command to have "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners, just as Jesus our Lord had perfect patience with Paul. It also violates our Lord's command that only the one without sin can implement the death penalty.

Supporting the death penalty is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

...How should a Christian view the death penalty? ..... God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself....

The standard given to Christians is "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

Support for the death penalty is contrary to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

Just to be clear, I didn't make any such statement for you to "agree" with me.You should be careful not to presume to know what is in someone's heart or the motivations they have for their beliefs. To call them "self-righteous" for pointing out the obvious (men don't get to judge God's actions) is high-handed on your part.Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder'..... (22) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;..."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery', (28) But I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

Matt. 5:33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord'" (34) But I say to you, make no oath at all....."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

John 8:7 "But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and siad to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.'"

Jesus isn't just trying to embarrass them. He is making a direct reference to the O.T. Law concerning the implementation of the death penalty.

Deut. 17:6-7 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. (7) The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people..." (my bold for emphasis, not yelling)

Jesus changes the law for implementing the death penalty. Instead of 2 or three witnesses being the first to cast the stones (implementing the death penalty), it is the "he who is without sin" who implements the death penalty.

That leaves only God to implement the death penalty, since only God is sinless.Gal: 5:3 "And I testify again to everyone man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law..."

If you keep one part of the Law, you are obligated to keep it all. Yes, it is.

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Paul has just stated He considers himself the foremost of all sinners. Paul was a murderer of Christians by his own admission.

This passage is very clear and very specific. Jesus gave all future believers an example to live by concerning our attitudes toward the worst of sinners. That example was one of perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

To support the death penalty violates this command to have "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners, just as Jesus our Lord had perfect patience with Paul. It also violates our Lord's command that only the one without sin can implement the death penalty.

Supporting the death penalty is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

canadyjd sorry about the part about making it look like I was agreeing with something that you stated. I did not proof the text very good after writing it. I have corrected it.

as to the hypocrisy statement I make no apology. I did not mention a name, but I have seen the evidence in some people. It is not judging simply because we make an observation. Jesus said we will know them by their fruit.
Next about Jesus and the law. Yes he did clarify the intent of the law by expounding on it. But he did not change the law. It was not done away with which was the original suggestion. He said I did not come to do away (destroy) the law.

As to John 8:7 that passage is very questionable. It is not in the best manuscripts. If you have a study bible it will explain that to you. so it is best not to try and use it as a proof text. Even if it is a good text it does not do away with the death penalty. There is not single suggestion of such. He does not say you have heard, but I say. The context is totally different.

No place does the Lord do away with the death penalty. Yes some people do, but not the Lord.

 

[freeatlast]

The standard given to Christians is "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

Support for the death penalty is contrary to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

Even God does not hold your standard! God gave the death penalty. God is going to send un-repentant sinners to hell. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. That is the death penalty. Also the scripture says'
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Again the death penalty confirmed as being for now.

 

[HankD]

Under the law of the OT there was some very serious punishment for certain crimes against others. Do you believe that God was being too severe in the calling for the death penalty for such crimes as;
Murder
Adultery
homosexuality
striking a parent
rape

There are more but these are enough for now. So with these if you were alive under the law would you obey God or stand against Him on these issues?

Obey.

Also should we have the same standards today or has God changed in how He feels about such things?

No He was not being too severe, He makes the rules and He rescinds them as well (Acts 10, Acts 15).

Yes we should have these standards because the law was given to unregenerate flesh of which the world is presently comprised (for the most part).

But apart from the death penalty for murder In the Western world (for the most part and some nations don't even have the death penalty for any reason - Canada) we dont.

Neither can we take it upon ourselves as individuals to enforce those laws which our governments do not judicate or enforce as we are instructed to obey the laws of the land in which we reside.

Another point to be made is that even under the Law there was mercy.
e.g. David and his acts of adultery and then premeditated murder.

Then there were the Prophets which offered mercy to Israel-Judah if they would repent.

Another point, as Christians led of the Spirit we should think ourselves exempt from His chastising hand when we leave off following Him.

In addition there is scriptural evidence that mercy when it is in our power to grant it, is considered a good thing...

Matthew 1

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.​

Having answered your questions, I have a question for you freeatlast (or anyone).

What about Sabbath Keeping?
Should Christians (or anyone) be put to death for not keeping the earthly Sabbath or failing to go to church on the Lord's Day?

HankD

 

[freeatlast]

Obey.
No He was not being too severe, He makes the rules and He rescinds them as well (Acts 10, Acts 15).

Yes we should have these standards because the law was given to unregenerate flesh of which the world is presently comprised (for the most part).

But apart from the death penalty for murder In the Western world (for the most part and some nations don't even have the death penalty for any reason - Canada) we dont.

Neither can we take it upon ourselves as individuals to enforce those laws which our governments do not judicate or enforce as we are instructed to obey the laws of the land in which we reside.

Another point to be made is that even under the Law there was mercy.
e.g. David and his acts of adultery and then premeditated murder.

Then there were the Prophets which offered mercy to Israel-Judah if they would repent.

Another point, as Christians led of the Spirit we should think ourselves exempt from His chastising hand when we leave off following Him.

In addition there is scriptural evidence that mercy when it is in our power to grant it, is considered a good thing...

Matthew 1

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.​

Having answered your questions, I have a question for you freeatlast (or anyone).

What about Sabbath Keeping?
Should Christians (or anyone) be put to death for not keeping the earthly Sabbath or failing to go to church on the Lord's Day?

HankD

I agree with what you have said. I would add that it could be argued that David did not receive mercy. His punishment was changed, but he suffered all the rest of his life for his sin. Also in the case of Joseph he was permitted to carry out the death penalty under the law but because of the occupation he was not allowed to do this so his recourse was to put her away in public or privately, but the Spirit convinced him to receive Mary instead.

While I agree that we as Christians should lean towards mercy when possible I also say that the courts have no right to give mercy on their own. In this country our courts are to carry out justice, not mercy. If any offended person (victim) desires to offer mercy the court should grant such as the victim desires, but apart from that no court at any time has the right to offer mercy on behalf of another. Their job is to carry our justice, not mercy.


In the case of the Sabbath it was given to the Jew, and their household, no one else. It is not for the church. The Sabbath was and always will be Saturday. It has and never will change. We the church are called to come together, but no specific day has been given for that. Most have chosen Sunday as the day, but any day would be acceptable. There is no law concerning death if we do not attend so the answer is no for the church yes to the Jew under the law.

 

[Iconoclast]

The standard given to Christians is "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

Support for the death penalty is contrary to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

Hello jd,
here is a good sermon;let me know what you think;

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=62803175244

there are four sermons in this series,all are excellent:thumbs:

 

[HankD]

I agree with what you have said. I would add that it could be argued that David did not receive mercy. His punishment was changed, but he suffered all the rest of his life for his sin. Also in the case of Joseph he was permitted to carry out the death penalty under the law but because of the occupation he was not allowed to do this so his recourse was to put her away in public or privately, but the Spirit convinced him to receive Mary instead.

While I agree that we as Christians should lean towards mercy when possible I also say that the courts have no right to give mercy on their own. In this country our courts are to carry out justice, not mercy. If any offended person (victim) desires to offer mercy the court should grant such as the victim desires, but apart from that no court at any time has the right to offer mercy on behalf of another. Their job is to carry our justice, not mercy.


In the case of the Sabbath it was given to the Jew, and their household, no one else. It is not for the church. The Sabbath was and always will be Saturday. It has and never will change. We the church are called to come together, but no specific day has been given for that. Most have chosen Sunday as the day, but any day would be acceptable. There is no law concerning death if we do not attend so the answer is no for the church yes to the Jew under the law.

Good.

Thanks.

HankD

 

[canadyjd]

....As to John 8:7 that passage is very questionable. It is not in the best manuscripts. If you have a study bible it will explain that to you. so it is best not to try and use it as a proof text.

The passage is not questionable in my mind. It is scripture. It has a long affirmation as such.

Even if it is a good text it does not do away with the death penalty. There is not single suggestion of such. He does not say you have heard, but I say. The context is totally different.

The context is specifically about the death penalty and how it is implemented. Jesus alludes to the O.T. Law about implementing the death penalty when He changes the standard for implementation from "2 or 3 witnesses" to the "one who is without sin."

I always find it interesting that those who shout the loudest about following what scripture says are quick to dismiss it or ignore what it says when it is contrary to what they want to believe.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Even God does not hold your standard!

God gave the standard. He does not have to "hold" to the same standard He has given to us, He is God. He delivers perfect justice, in perfect righteousness, according to His perfect nature.

I did not come up with the standard of "perfect patience". Jesus has given Christians the standard of "perfect patience" when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul (I Tim. 1:16). That is the clear language of the text.

All you have to do is decide if you are going to obey the commands of Christ or not. That was one of your questions, wasn't it? Will you obey the commands of our Lord, and will you stand against God and the clear teaching of scripture? You decide.

God gave the death penalty.

And God gave the standard for implementing the death penalty. The "one who is without sin" is the one who implements the death penalty.

Would you rather have the world's standards? or God's standards?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Hello jd,
here is a good sermon;let me know what you think;...there are four sermons in this series,all are excellent:thumbs:

Thank you for the thought.

Unfortunately, internet dial-up service is all that is available in my area. It would take far more time to download (hours w/o a doubt) than I can spare.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

God gave the standard. He does not have to "hold" to the same standard He has given to us, He is God. He delivers perfect justice, in perfect righteousness, according to His perfect nature.

I did not come up with the standard of "perfect patience". Jesus has given Christians the standard of "perfect patience" when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul (I Tim. 1:16). That is the clear language of the text.

All you have to do is decide if you are going to obey the commands of Christ or not. That was one of your questions, wasn't it? Will you obey the commands of our Lord, and will you stand against God and the clear teaching of scripture? You decide.And God gave the standard for implementing the death penalty. The "one who is without sin" is the one who implements the death penalty.

Would you rather have the world's standards? or God's standards?

peace to youraying:

There is one thing about it. When satan convinces someone of a lie he many times does it with the dumbest belief he can so that the world mocks the claimed believer.
To suggest that God gave a law, in this case the death penalty, and then made the condition to carry it out impossible is utter willfull blindness . Being willingly ignorant is not a great Christian attribute.

 

[canadyjd]

There is one thing about it. When satan convinces someone of a lie he many times does it with the dumbest belief he can so that the world mocks the claimed believer.

Let's see.
I have given you a specific passage of scripture to support what I believe. (I Tim. 1:16). The context is clear. The command is clear. The implications are clear.

And yet, you claim it is "dumb" and a lie from satan. You then join the world in mocking a Christian believer for holding the view.

I'm not the one who is decieved here. I'm not the one joining the world in mocking a Christian for following the commands of Jesus Christ.

Rather than address the passage of scripture to point out how I am wrong, you claim I have been decieved by satan into embracing the "dumbest belief"....

To suggest that God gave a law, in this case the death penalty, and then made the condition to carry it out impossible is utter willfull blindness . Being willingly ignorant is not a great Christian attribute.

Friend, God gave many laws that people are unable to carry out. That is a foundational belief among most Christians, imho, that the Law pointed to our need for a Savior precisely because we couldn't fulfill the demands of the Law.

BTW, you have accused me of believing a lie from satan, of having "dumb" beliefs, and now of being willfully ignorant... all without even attempting to address the passage of scripture I am using to base my beliefs.

You then have the audacity to lecture me about what constitutes great "Christian attributes".

You go ahead and follow the world, I'll follow the teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ instead.

peace to youraying: