OT law

[freeatlast]

Let's see.
I have given you a specific passage of scripture to support what I believe. (I Tim. 1:16). The context is clear. The command is clear. The implications are clear.

And yet, you claim it is "dumb" and a lie from satan. You then join the world in mocking a Christian believer for holding the view.

I'm not the one who is decieved here. I'm not the one joining the world in mocking a Christian for following the commands of Jesus Christ.

Rather than address the passage of scripture to point out how I am wrong, you claim I have been decieved by satan into embracing the "dumbest belief".... Friend, God gave many laws that people are unable to carry out. That is a foundational belief among most Christians, imho, that the Law pointed to our need for a Savior precisely because we couldn't fulfill the demands of the Law.

BTW, you have accused me of believing a lie from satan, of having "dumb" beliefs, and now of being willfully ignorant... all without even attempting to address the passage of scripture I am using to base my beliefs.

You then have the audacity to lecture me about what constitutes great "Christian attributes".

You go ahead and follow the world, I'll follow the teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ instead.

peace to youraying:

There is no command. The passage is very questionable at best. Even it were a real happening there is no command.
By the way God has NEVER given any law that cannot be carried out.

 

[canadyjd]

There is no command. The passage is very questionable at best. Even it were a real happening there is no command.

Spoken like a true liberal denying the Word of God. It is just more of the world that you are embracing.

By the way God has NEVER given any law that cannot be carried out.

Then salvation would be accomplished through the Law.

We are not able to administer justice impartially. The influence of our sin and the sin of others make it impossible.

That is why Jesus gave us the standard of "the one who is without sin" as being the one who administers the death penalty.

And yes, we are commanded to have "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners. We are commanded to allow "the one without sin" to be the one who implements the death penalty.

I emplore you, follow the Word of God, not the world.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

Spoken like a true liberal denying the Word of God. It is just more of the world that you are embracing. Then salvation would be accomplished through the Law.

We are not able to administer justice impartially. The influence of our sin and the sin of others make it impossible.

That is why Jesus gave us the standard of "the one who is without sin" as being the one who administers the death penalty.

And yes, we are commanded to have "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners. We are commanded to allow "the one without sin" to be the one who implements the death penalty.

I emplore you, follow the Word of God, not the world.

peace to youraying:

I can tell that you do not even understand why man is lost. He is not lost because he does not keep the law. He is lost because he is born a sinner. The god you have is an unjust god. He gives laws that cannot be kept and the saved people or condemns them depending on their response.
The death penality has never been recended.
The God of the bible offers salvation to man even though that man is able to obey and does not. All sin is willfull and until one accepts that they are unable to confess sin.

 

[canadyjd]

....The death penality has never been recended.

I gave you scripture that shows that Christians should not support the death penalty. You are choosing to ignore those passages of scripture in favor of a worldly view and you have now questioned my salvation by saying...

freeatlast said...."The god you have is an unjust god..."

The God I have is the Living God. Unlike you, I follow His Word where ever it takes me.

I really don't see any reason to continue this conversation with you.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

I gave you scripture that shows that Christians should not support the death penalty. You are choosing to ignore those passages of scripture in favor of a worldly view and you have now questioned my salvation by saying...The God I have is the Living God. Unlike you, I follow His Word where ever it takes me.

I really don't see any reason to continue this conversation with you.

peace to youraying:

Like I stated you gave no supporting scripture. You simply twisted existing scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

Like I stated you gave no supporting scripture. You simply twisted existing scripture.

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

I have engaged the text. I have shown the context. I have supported my argument with God's Word.

You have offerred nothing but your opinion, followed by insults, followed by denying my salvation, followed by denying the plain meaning of the text of scripture.

The I Tim. 1:16 passage is very clear. Jesus Christ showed mercy to Paul as an example of perfect patience specifically for future believers to follow. There is no other plausable interpretation of that passage.

Paul was a murderer. Therefore, Christians are to follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ and show mercy to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

It violates the command to show mercy when you support the death penalty.

There is no other way to understand the passage without ignoring the plain meaning of the text.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

I have engaged the text. I have shown the context. I have supported my argument with God's Word.

You have offerred nothing but your opinion, followed by insults, followed by denying my salvation, followed by denying the plain meaning of the text of scripture.

The I Tim. 1:16 passage is very clear. Jesus Christ showed mercy to Paul as an example of perfect patience specifically for future believers to follow. There is no other plausable interpretation of that passage.

Paul was a murderer. Therefore, Christians are to follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ and show mercy to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

It violates the command to show mercy when you support the death penalty.

There is no other way to understand the passage without ignoring the plain meaning of the text.

peace to youraying:

I agree that just because I say it does not make it true, What makes it true is scripture, not the twisting of it that you are doing. You tell me what these passages are saying;
Matt 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Sounds like the death penality to me.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Again sounds like the death penality to me. The sword is not used to spank someone. It was used to take a life.

 

[rbell]

never mind. Ya'll keep fighting.

 

[canadyjd]

I agree that just because I say it does not make it true, What makes it true is scripture, not the twisting of it that you are doing. You tell me what these passages are saying;
Matt 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Sounds like the death penality to me.

Sounds like Jesus telling Peter to put his sword away. The Kingdom of Heaven will not come by force of arms. That is what Jesus is saying.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Again sounds like the death penality to me. The sword is not used to spank someone. It was used to take a life.

The Romans 13 passage is a warning to Christian not to rebel against the Roman government, probably because of taxes. "The sword" is an image of authority, which is exactly what Paul is saying in context. The cross was the image of execution for rebellion.

No where are Christians told to support the death penalty. In fact, the death penalty was being used against them (at times). The 1st Century Christians had no power or authority to execute anyone.

I have answered your questions and addressed the passages of scripture you believe support your position.

Now, you engage I Tim. 1:16 and tell me how supporting the death penalty is not contrary to the specific command to demonstrate perfect patience by showing mercy to the worst of sinners, just as Jesus Christ had mercy on the murderer Paul.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

Sounds like Jesus telling Peter to put his sword away. The Kingdom of Heaven will not come by force of arms. That is what Jesus is saying.The Romans 13 passage is a warning to Christian not to rebel against the Roman government, probably because of taxes. "The sword" is an image of authority, which is exactly what Paul is saying in context. The cross was the image of execution for rebellion.

No where are Christians told to support the death penalty. In fact, the death penalty was being used against them (at times). The 1st Century Christians had no power or authority to execute anyone.

I have answered your questions and addressed the passages of scripture you believe support your position.

Now, you engage I Tim. 1:16 and tell me how supporting the death penalty is not contrary to the specific command to demonstrate perfect patience by showing mercy to the worst of sinners, just as Jesus Christ had mercy on the murderer Paul.

peace to youraying:

The passage in 1Tim is not about breaking judical laws. Paul was not a wanted man for such. If he had been he would have been executed. The death penality is called for by God under the direction of any government and it was never changed. It came into effect before the law and is still in effect.

 

[canadyjd]

never mind. Ya'll keep fighting.

Brother, I welcome your respectful critique of my position on this or any other issue. Show me how I am wrong from scripture, and I will take an honest look. I can be convinced by God's Word.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

The passage in 1Tim is not about breaking judical laws. Paul was not a wanted man for such. If he had been he would have been executed.

Whether a government recognizes a violation of God's Laws or not, whether the man is "wanted" or not, does not change the fact that the Law has been violated. Without question, Paul was guilty of shedding innocent blood.

The passage in I Tim. is about the attitudes that Christians should have toward the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

The passage is clear. Jesus Christ gave us, as Christians, an example to follow. That example is to demonstrate perfect patience by showing mercy to the worst of sinners.

If you support putting someone to death, that violates the command of our Lord to show mercy with perfect patience.

The death penality is called for by God under the direction of any government and it was never changed. It came into effect before the law and is still in effect.

God can and will use ungodly governments/ungodly people to accomplish His purpose. Let the ungodly support the death penalty. Christians are commanded to have a different attitude than the world.

peace to youraying:

 

[freeatlast]

Whether a government recognizes a violation of God's Laws or not, whether the man is "wanted" or not, does not change the fact that the Law has been violated. Without question, Paul was guilty of shedding innocent blood.

The passage in I Tim. is about the attitudes that Christians should have toward the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

The passage is clear. Jesus Christ gave us, as Christians, an example to follow. That example is to demonstrate perfect patience by showing mercy to the worst of sinners.

If you support putting someone to death, that violates the command of our Lord to show mercy with perfect patience. God can and will use ungodly governments/ungodly people to accomplish His purpose. Let the ungodly support the death penalty. Christians are commanded to have a different attitude than the world.

peace to youraying:

God gave the death penality and we are to obey that. God never took it away.

 

[canadyjd]

God gave the death penality and we are to obey that. God never took it away.

The passages you used to support your position shows governments implementing the death penalty, not Christians.

We, as Christians, are to obey the specific command given to us in I Tim. 1:16, which is to demonstrate mercy by having perfect patience with the worst of sinners.

You have yet to explain how supporting the death penalty is not contrary to this command. You cannot, because it is contrary to our Lord's command.

peace to youraying:

 

[HankD]

The passages you used to support your position shows governments implementing the death penalty, not Christians.

We, as Christians, are to obey the specific command given to us in I Tim. 1:16, which is to demonstrate mercy by having perfect patience with the worst of sinners.

You have yet to explain how supporting the death penalty is not contrary to this command. You cannot, because it is contrary to our Lord's command.

peace to youraying:

Therefore we are free to support the death penalty (or not) in an election or referendum since we participate in the creation of the law of our government.

In the case of voting for pro-death penalty representatives we are electing

"the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil"


HankD

 

[moral necessity]

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The sword is not to spank you with or simply stick you to wake someone up. The sword is an instrument of death. So should we support the death penality since God calls for it before the law, under the law and under grace?

To "bear the sword" is a figure of speech in the Greek, meaning that the person is in a position of power and authority. The word "sword" is not to be taken literally, as if it is the instrument that he wields. That would be like saying "Johnny stole home" and thinking that he robbed a house.

See page 604 of the book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, by E.W. Bullinger, found here http://www.christianbook.com/figures-speech-used-in-the-bible/e-w-bullinger/9780801005596/pd/05590

Blessings!

 

[sag38]

A sword is a sword and it is used for one purpose. It is not a figure of speech. Pacifists need need to beat a sword into a plow share in order to fit thier false theology.

 

[moral necessity]

A sword is a sword and it is used for one purpose. It is not a figure of speech. Pacifists need need to beat a sword into a plow share in order to fit thier false theology.

Look this verse up in the Greek language yourself. My comment was with regard to basic Greek grammar, not with the sides of this debate. Other verses might support you, but this verse cannot be used as a prooftext for your point, just like Luke 13:32 cannot prove that Herod was a real fox. Elementary Greek grammar was all that I was referring to.

Blessings!

 

[freeatlast]

To "bear the sword" is a figure of speech in the Greek, meaning that the person is in a position of power and authority. The word "sword" is not to be taken literally, as if it is the instrument that he wields. That would be like saying "Johnny stole home" and thinking that he robbed a house.

See page 604 of the book Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, by E.W. Bullinger, found here http://www.christianbook.com/figures-speech-used-in-the-bible/e-w-bullinger/9780801005596/pd/05590

Blessings!

I have some swamp land you might be interested in! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[sag38]

The homosexual community uses the same Greek twisting tactic to force the scripture to fit their false theology as well.