Our role in evangelism

[DaveXR650]

FYI, you win the 'first mention of C' award for this thread. Give yourself a peanut.

I may be the first to mention the word but the original article in question was by a "C" who was taking other "C's" to task for not being "C" enough. One thing I'm beginning to realize is that I don't know much about the breadth and depth of Calvinism. But I also didn't know that classic Arminianism is different that the later semi-Pelagianism form of Arminianism that came later. In fact, I didn't, and don't know a lot when it comes to theology.

 

[JonC]

K. We disagree.

I see Sheep ambassadors Paul and Timothy addressing the sheep at Corinth (given the overall context) :

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia: 2 Cor 1

20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5

I view the Sheep as already reconciled to God.

 

[JonC]

I may be the first to mention the word but the original article in question was by a "C" who was taking other "C's" to task for not being "C" enough. One thing I'm beginning to realize is that I don't know much about the breadth and depth of Calvinism. But I also didn't know that classic Arminianism is different that the later semi-Pelagianism form of Arminianism that came later. In fact, I didn't, and don't know a lot when it comes to theology.

Maybe this will help (with understanding Classic Arminianism...or Reformation Arminianism):

Five articles of Remonstrance

Article 1
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Article 2
That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places.

Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

 

[kyredneck]

I view the Sheep as already reconciled to God.

Yes. Definitely. Reconciled while they were still yet enemies:

10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life, Ro 5

....and that's the good news to us, we have been reconciled.

Now, live like it.

 

[JD731]

I would like to weigh in on this subject by asking this question, "Has God ever granted the salvation of sinners to men," and then answer the question by a resounding "YES" if everyone agrees that salvation is receiving the Spirit of Christ into the mortal body by faith.

So, let's do it by numbers.

1) Jesus Christ was the first to give the Spirit to his disciples on resurrection day, according to John the apostle. Read it here.

Jn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Of course these words will not be believed by most on this forum.

2) Here is an instance where Peter and John retained the sins of a man named Simon.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritan

The apostles did not breath the Holy Ghost into them but the laying on of the apostles hands was required for salvation of the covenanted people, the Hebrews, in the beginning of the church and at least until Acts 15 at the council meeting of the apostles concerning the receiving of the gentiles and what part of the law, if any, applied to them.

Of course, no one here is apt to believe this either, even though Acts 8 is at least 7 years into the apostolic era.

Here is an instance where an apostle remitted the sins of 12 Jews.

3) Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I want to look at this quote (I am referencing this from another thread. These are not Iconoclast's words but part of a larger work he offered for discussion)



The premise, as I understand, is that we are to point to Christ without urging people to believe as we do not know who God has chosen to save.

I disagree, but think it is a worthy topic of discussion.

I would say that urging is perfectly in line with Jude 1:22-24.

Jude seems to indicate that God uses our actions to the unbelievers to have some kind of effect. Some we are to save with compassion, and others we are to hellfire and brimstone them until they wet themselves, and it's up to the Holy Spirit's discernment for us to decide which route to use in a given situation.

In any event, whether it's compassion or hellfire/brimstone, our actions (and thus our urging) do seem to have an effect.

 

[Lodic]

???

15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear: 1 Pet 3

Is this not enough?

Did Christ make every one of us evangelists?

It depends on how we define "pointing people to Christ". I believe that the Great Commission requires us to engage with others in sharing the Gospel.

 

[Reformed1689]

I want to look at this quote (I am referencing this from another thread. These are not Iconoclast's words but part of a larger work he offered for discussion)



The premise, as I understand, is that we are to point to Christ without urging people to believe as we do not know who God has chosen to save.

I disagree, but think it is a worthy topic of discussion.

I think we should preach exactly what the Bible says, that Christ died for all that would believe in Him. The Bible does not go further than that.

 

[JonC]

It depends on how we define "pointing people to Christ". I believe that the Great Commission requires us to engage with others in sharing the Gospel.

I agree.

And it is simple, really.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you are Sheep ambassador in Goat land, to whom does your duty lie?

Oh I can answer that since I seriously do live in goat land, your duty lies to God

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh I can answer that since I seriously do live in goat land, your duty lies to God

Then to getting outa goat land least the goats attempt to destroy you.

 

[Dave G]

You do not think that the gospel message is worthy of your time and effort to reach out to the lost so that they might be redeemed?

The redemption has already taken place:

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:10 ).

There is no "might be", my friend.
Redemption for God's children took place at the cross.

 

[Reformed1689]

The redemption has already taken place:

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:10 ).

There is no "might be", my friend.
Redemption for God's children took place at the cross.

These are seemingly minor details, but in reality, they are massive points.

 

[JonC]

The redemption has already taken place:

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:10 ).

There is no "might be", my friend.
Redemption for God's children took place at the cross.

Good point. Probably should read that they might be saved, or reconciled.

 

[Reformed1689]

Good point. Probably should read that they might be saved, or reconciled.

Why on earth should it read that way? Because your theology demands it? That's not what Scripture says.

 

[Silverhair]

The redemption has already taken place:

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:10 ).

There is no "might be", my friend.
Redemption for God's children took place at the cross.

Redemption for God's children did not take place at the cross. Even the verse you quote points out your error, "we shall be saved by his life"

Totally wrong, no one is redeemed at the cross. Christ Jesus paid humanities sin debt at the cross. We are saved by His life. If He had not risen we would still be in our sins.
1Co_15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Co_15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

We are saved by grace through faith. We have to believe before we are saved and we believe in the risen Christ Jesus as is pointed out above.

 

[Reformed1689]

Redemption for God's children did not take place at the cross. Even the verse you quote points out your error, "we shall be saved by his life"

Totally wrong, no one is redeemed at the cross. Christ Jesus paid humanities sin debt at the cross. We are saved by His life. If He had not risen we would still be in our sins.
1Co_15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Co_15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

We are saved by grace through faith. We have to believe before we are saved and we believe in the risen Christ Jesus as is pointed out above.

Were reconciled. Already happened.

 

[JonC]

Redemption for God's children did not take place at the cross. Even the verse you quote points out your error, "we shall be saved by his life"

Totally wrong, no one is redeemed at the cross. Christ Jesus paid humanities sin debt at the cross. We are saved by His life. If He had not risen we would still be in our sins.
1Co_15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Co_15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

We are saved by grace through faith. We have to believe before we are saved and we believe in the risen Christ Jesus as is pointed out above.

Exactly. Man is reconciled to God by Christ's death, but we are saved by His life. On the cross God was reconciling man to Himself, so we have the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God.

We were not, as individuals, reconciled to God by Christs' death, but we are by faith reconciled by His life.

Calvinism conflates the reconciliation of mankind to the reconciliation of men, which is a serious error.

 

[Iconoclast]

Redemption for God's children did not take place at the cross. Even the verse you quote points out your error, "we shall be saved by his life"

Totally wrong, no one is redeemed at the cross. Christ Jesus paid humanities sin debt at the cross. We are saved by His life. If He had not risen we would still be in our sins.
1Co_15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Co_15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

We are saved by grace through faith. We have to believe before we are saved and we believe in the risen Christ Jesus as is pointed out above.

No...multitudes will fully pay their sin debt eternally.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly. Man is reconciled to God by Christ's death, but we are saved by His life. On the cross God was reconciling man to Himself, so we have the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God.

We were not, as individuals, reconciled to God by Christs' death, but we are by faith reconciled by His life.

Calvinism conflates the reconciliation of mankind to the reconciliation of men, which is a serious error.

The unsaved who remain so are not reconciled to God.