Parable of the Talents

[tinytim]

Why not? Jesus' did.

You've got to be kidding!
Where are the scriptures used in context on this whole thing?

 

[Hope of Glory]

The context is that we are trichotomous beings: Body, soul, and spirit. Scripture teaches us that when Jesus died, his body went into the grave, his spirit went to be with the father, and his soul went to hell (not the lake of fire, which has sadly become referred to as "hell".)

By the same token, there are passages of Scripture that tell us that salvation is secure and based strictly upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross, while there are others that tell us that our salvation is not secure and is based upon our faithfulness.

The latter, is always referring to the salvation of the soul, and there are some promises of rewards in the age to come, and some concerning loss, but there are many warning us about the dire consequences of not doing such.

So, is our salvation based upon works or not?

When you fail to distinguish between the three parts of man, you can "prove" both sides of the issue, and many groups of people do so and fight and argue about it. But, the truth of the matter is that the answer is "both". Our salvation is secure and it's not.

Our spiritual salvation cannot be revoked, nor can it be forfeited. If it can be, then the Scriptures are flawed, and you have to wonder what other parts cannot be trusted.

But, if you hold this to be true, then the passages that give us the dire warnings cannot be talking about spiritual salvation, unless you want to add to the Scriptures things such as "then they weren't really and truly saved".

Now, if you don't think the Scriptures are inerrant, this is a moot point and a pointless discussion, but if you think they are inerrant, then there's a seeming contradiction if you don't think the salvation of the spirit and the salvation of the soul are separate.

 

[Rex77]

We are Spirit Soul and Body

1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


* The spirit returns to God,


Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

(I think these verses refer to all men )


* The soul goes to heaven or hell.

Of course if you are saved the spirit and soul both go to God.


* The body returns to dust till the resurrection,


(But as we see the rich man and Lazarus had a temporary body,till theirs are resurrected,they had fingers and tounge.)

Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Thoughts ?

 

[gekko]

But as we see the rich man and Lazarus had a temporary body,till theirs are resurrected,they had fingers and tounge.

why do you think its a literal body? well... i guess it beats being a pile of mist... oh well.

sorry for butting in. carry on!

God bless.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

HoG,

Show scripture where Jesus went to hell instead of just claims that He did.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I forgot this one and it was too late to edit:

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Spiritual salvation is based upon the finished work of the Lord Jesus. Where some people get confused is they fail to distinguish between spiritual salvation and the salvation of the soul, because the salvation of the soul does require works on the part of the individual, such as repentance, bearing fruit, etc.

The spirit and the soul are one and the same in the Bible. Eternal salvation deals with that part of a person which doesn't die physically, that is the soul/spirit.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Acts 2:27 is a reference to the grave (Sheol), not hell (Gehenna). The other two verses do not say Christ went to hell. Also, Paradise is not hell.

 

[Marcia]

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

The "lower parts of the earth" does not refer to as we think of it - the place of punishment. It could be referring to the grave. There are also other views.

A commentary on this in the NET Bible:

rk "to the lower parts of the earth." This phrase has been variously interpreted: (1) The traditional view understands it as a reference to the underworld (hell), where Jesus is thought to have descended in the three days between his death and resurrection. In this case, "of the earth" would be a partitive genitive. (2) A second option is to translate the phrase "of the earth" as a genitive of apposition: "to the lower parts, namely, the earth" (as in the present translation). Many recent scholars hold this view and argue that it is a reference to the incarnation. (3) A third option, which also sees the phrase "of the earth" as a genitive of apposition, is that the descent in the passage occurs after the ascent rather than before it, and refers to the descent of the Spirit at Pentecost (cf. Acts 4:11-16). Support for this latter view is found in the intertestamental and rabbinic use of Ps 68:18 (quoted in v. 8), which is consistently and solely interpreted as a reference to Moses' ascent of Mt. Sinai to "capture" the words of the law. The probability, therefore, is that the comments here in v. 9 reflect a polemic against the interpretation of Ps 68:18 in certain circles as a reference to Moses. See W. H. Harris, The Descent of Christ (AGJU 32), 46-54; 171-204.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The spirit and the soul are one and the same in the Bible. Eternal salvation deals with that part of a person which doesn't die physically, that is the soul/spirit.

I guess Paul misspoke then: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I guess all the passages concerning the salvation of the soul (works) that contradict spiritual salvation, really are contradictory.

Now, I don't really believe this: I believe the Scriptures are inerrant, and mean exactly what they say and that man is body, soul, and spirit.

Animals, as stated by the Bible have souls, but nowhere does the Bible state they have spirits.

I don't think God made a mistake; it means what it says.

 

[Rex77]

Marcia quote
--------------------------------
The "lower parts of the earth" does not refer to as we think of it - the place of punishment. It could be referring to the grave. There are also other views.
---------------------------------
Commentators can't agree on anything.
Jesus gave us a word picture about lower parts of earth.
in the rich man and Lazarurs

1 hell was within view of paradise with a gulf between.
2 scripture tells us hell is in the lower parts of earth.
3 Abrahams bosom = paradise, Jesus went there he told the thief so.
4 Jesus took all OT saints to heaven after he rose.because Paul went
there the third heaven.

Just look for the clues they are all there.


Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

By the way jesus was not burried in the lower parts of the earth he was in a garden tomb.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Acts 2:27 is a reference to the grave (Sheol), not hell (Gehenna). The other two verses do not say Christ went to hell. Also, Paradise is not hell.

I think you're confusing hell with the lake of fire.

Matthew 11:23 is talking about Hades (Sheol), which is where Paradise is located. Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23... These are all the same word that used in Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31.

But, in Luke 12:4-5 (And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.) we have the word "Gehenna", and he's talking to his disciples; he's talking to saved people.

Don't confuse "hell" with "the lake of fire" or you'll have many problems in the Scriptures.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Marcia quote
--------------------------------
The "lower parts of the earth" does not refer to as we think of it - the place of punishment. It could be referring to the grave. There are also other views.
---------------------------------
Commentators can't agree on anything.
Jesus gave us a word picture about lower parts of earth.
in the rich man and Lazarurs

1 hell was within view of paradise with a gulf between.
2 scripture tells us hell is in the lower parts of earth.
3 Abrahams bosom = paradise, Jesus went there he told the thief so.
4 Jesus took all OT saints to heaven after he rose.because Paul went
there the third heaven.

Just look for the clues they are all there.


Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

By the way jesus was not burried in the lower parts of the earth he was in a garden tomb.

Hell was not in view of Paradise. Nowhere in scripture can one find a passage that says it was. Paradise was in view of hell, but not vice versa.

The Bible tells us the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham, but nowhere does it say they saw the rich man.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The Bible tells us the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham, but nowhere does it say they saw the rich man.

Neither does it say (nor indicate) they could not see the rich man. I would not base doctrine on either opinion, since Scripture does not state it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HoG,

The Bible does not say they saw the rich man, so to say they did would be adding to the Word.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I guess Paul misspoke then: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I guess all the passages concerning the salvation of the soul (works) that contradict spiritual salvation, really are contradictory.

Now, I don't really believe this: I believe the Scriptures are inerrant, and mean exactly what they say and that man is body, soul, and spirit.

Animals, as stated by the Bible have souls, but nowhere does the Bible state they have spirits.

I don't think God made a mistake; it means what it says.

"I guess all the passages concerning the salvation of the soul (works) that contradict spiritual salvation, really are contradictory."

You see that's where you're wrong. There is no contradiction between these two. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. But when someone is born again there is necessarily a change in their lives. Therefore you can't separate the two. Both of the two descriptions of the Judgement in MA 25 and REV 20 talk about a judgement by works. How do you explain that if works are unnecessary?

 

[Rex77]

Standingfiminchrist quote
-------------------------
Hell was not in view of Paradise. Nowhere in scripture can one find a passage that says it was. Paradise was in view of hell, but not vice versa.

The Bible tells us the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham, but nowhere does it say they saw the rich man.
-------------------------------

Sorry your right that will teach me to proof read my posts. (location was the point.)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Reason Lazarus and Abraham could not have seen the rich man:

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

(3.) He is ordered into a doleful dungeon; Cast him into utter darkness. Our Saviour here insensibly slides out of this parable into that which it intimates-the damnation of hypocrites in the other world. Hell is utter darkness, it is darkness out of heaven, the land of light; or it is extreme darkness, darkness to the last degree, without the least ray or spark of light, or hope of it, like that of Egypt; darkness which might be felt; the blackness of darkness, as darkness itself, Job 10:22.

"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:13).

(2.) His doom is, to be cast into outer darkness. Here, as in what was said to the faithful servants, our Saviour slides insensibly out of the parable into the thing intended by it, and it serves as a key to the whole; for, outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, is, in Christ's discourses, the common periphrasis of the miseries of the damned in hell. Their state is, {1.} Very dismal; it is outer darkness. Darkness is uncomfortable and frightful: it was one of the plagues of Egypt. In hell there are chains of darkness, 2 Pt. 2:4. In the dark no man can work, a fit punishment for a slothful servant. It is outer darkness, out from the light of heaven, out from the joy of their Lord, into which the faithful servants were admitted; out from the feast. Compare ch. 8:12; 22:13.

 

[ituttut]

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Parable of the Talents

Quote:
I fail to understand why you refuse to believe that Christ Jesus taught Paul everything he knew of this "dispensation" we live in. You say Paul Learned, but will not say it was Christ Jesus that taught Him. If I misstate in this matter, I apologize, but I do not see acknowledgement of this in your posts.



Of course Paul was taught personally by our Lord.

Then we agree. Two gospels.

Quote:
Not only no longer Gentiles, but also no longer Jews



Exactly. One new man in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile, becuase of the promises of the kingdom being taken away from Israel and also for Abraham's seed.

Not taken away, but delayed. Would God go back on His Word? He will come again for THEM. All are not in the Body of Christ.

Quote:
now know this for Christ Jesus revealed it to you, so Amen. But Adam didn't know this, nor Noah and forward. They were not asked or told to believe this gospel.



Exactly. That's what I have been saying all along.

That gospel, or this gospel?

Quote:
But I look to be with Christ in heaven before that "kingdom comes' as taught in the OT.



Yes we will be taken back to His home where we will stand before our Judge and have our works tried by the fire. Then after the seven-year tribulation then Christ will return to rule and reign with His bride from the heavens. And He will also rule from the physical earth from David's throne in Jerusalem. Oh that that day would come soon!

Amen to you. We pray for the rapture, the event that unlocks the closed door of prophecy, allowing the tribulation to begin, and also His judgment of our faithfulness to His glory. Then after the tribulation and our rewards ceremony the nations will be judged (Matthew 25:31-32).

Oh Israel in their salvation, and their glory at last, become the Bride of the Lamb, for the "Bridegroom cometh" says Matthew 9:15.


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