Part II: Biblical Doctrine of Election

[Van]

That's pretty cool!
I would like to suggest that somewhere in there you include the actual facts of the gospel: including Jesus being born of man, dying on the cross, being raised from the dead, etc.

This is a presentation of the biblical doctrine of Election. So it is just one of the truths of the gospel of Christ.

 

[Van]

If the dispute is about Free-'will' or Free-Grace,
SNIP
(Zech. 4:6; John 1:13; 3:5; Rom. 9:15, 16; Col. 2:12; 2 Thess. 1:11; Eph. 1:10; Phil. 2:13).

This is about the biblical doctrine of Election. Thus about God choosing believers for salvation.

 

[Van]

The five points of Biblical Election (ELECT)

1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then subsequently chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones.

The Biblical support for points 1-3 (ELE) were presented on page one of this thread.

 

[Derf B]

This is a presentation of the biblical doctrine of Election. So it is just one of the truths of the gospel of Christ.

I understand. However, if we are elected based on a belief in a particular thing, it makes sense to me that the particular thing ought to be included. You mention it in every point as "faith in Christ", but what is it we're suppose to have faith in Him for? Election? It seems to be tautological.

 

[Van]

I understand. However, if we are elected based on a belief in a particular thing, it makes sense to me that the particular thing ought to be included. You mention it in every point as "faith in Christ", but what is it we're suppose to have faith in Him for? Election? It seems to be tautological.

The point is God must credit our faith as righteousness. Say some very well studied and brilliant person knows scripture and can repeat back every salient point of the gospel of Christ, does God credit his "faith" as righteousness? Or how about a dumb fisherman who loves Christ so much he is willing to die for Him. Would God credit his faith, full of inaccurate beliefs, as righteousness? Read James 2:5 and tell me what scripture says.

 

[Van]

4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

1) The "call" (invitation to salvation) is made by the gospel of Christ (Mark 1:15). He laid down His life as a ransom for all, so His shed blood provides the means of salvation for everyone (1 Timothy 2:6). But to receive that "reconciliation" the person must be placed spiritually into Christ, referred to as the sanctification by the Spirit. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

2) Not everyone who is "exposed" (hears with understanding) to the gospel believes or believes fully. The Second and Third soils of Matthew 13 did not believe fully, thus God did not credit their faith as righteousness and place them into Christ.

3) Some of the fallen lose their innate ability to understand the gospel because they hardened their own hearts with the deceitfulness of sin. (Hebrews 3:13)

4) As ambassadors of Christ we are to witness, by word and example so that we cultivate, plant and nurture (water) the fallen and lost such that they might believe and be saved. (1 Corinthians 3:7 and 2 Corinthians 5:20)

 

[Derf B]

This is a presentation of the biblical doctrine of Election. So it is just one of the truths of the gospel of Christ.

I understand. However, if we are elected based on a belief in a particular thing, it makes sense to me that the particular thing ought to be included. Otherwise it just becomes another useless doctrinal point.

The Biblical Election doctrine can be compared with the Arminianism articles of Remonstrance, and with the points of Calvinism (TULIP) using the acronym ELECT.

The five articles of remonstrance
1. God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in Him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving. (In other words predestination is said to be conditioned by God's foreknowledge of who would respond to the gospel)
2. Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
3. Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. (Though accused of such, Arminius and his followers were not Pelagians.)
4. All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.
5. Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.

The five points of Calvinism (TULIP)
1. That fallen man is totally unable to seek God, understand spiritual things, or trust fully in Christ. (Total Spiritual Inability)
2. That God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)
3. That Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but Christ died only for the elect (Limited Atonement)
4. That the gift of faith, given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)
5. That those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the Saints)

The five points of Biblical Election (ELECT)

1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then subsequently chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones.

Another thing is the focus on depravity. I think you ought to focus on salvation from the thing that was threatened in the garden: Death. Love overcomes death. Man is destined to death from conception. But God has provided a way to be saved even from death, shown to us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

No amount of goodness in anyone is enough to avoid the curse of death--all is as filthy rags for that purpose. And the only thing that can do it for us is the death of Jesus Christ in our place. Love overcame death...and will overcome death in all of us. We who are saved already are saved in a way that is a promise of overcoming death, despite the fact that most of us will experience it.

I don't think I would use "Trust in Faith", since it is tautological, like saying "trust in trust" or "have faith in faith". Maybe that's why I suggested you should verbalize what the faith is. Our world is putting forward the idea of "believe", but they don't say what to believe in, except maybe "yourself". That's an ineffective focus, as we all know.

 

[Van]

I understand. However, if we are elected based on a belief in a particular thing, it makes sense to me that the particular thing ought to be included. Otherwise it just becomes another useless doctrinal point.

Apparently you posted this before reading post #25.

Another thing is the focus on depravity. I think you ought to focus on salvation from the thing that was threatened in the garden: Death. Love overcomes death. Man is destined to death from conception. But God has provided a way to be saved even from death, shown to us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

No amount of goodness in anyone is enough to avoid the curse of death--all is as filthy rags for that purpose. And the only thing that can do it for us is the death of Jesus Christ in our place. Love overcame death...and will overcome death in all of us. We who are saved already are saved in a way that is a promise of overcoming death, despite the fact that most of us will experience it.

I don't think I would use "Trust in Faith", since it is tautological, like saying "trust in trust" or "have faith in faith". Maybe that's why I suggested you should verbalize what the faith is. Our world is putting forward the idea of "believe", but they don't say what to believe in, except maybe "yourself". That's an ineffective focus, as we all know.

I chose in this thread to focus on the biblical doctrine of election.

I see you think "Trust in Faith" is tautological. But did you read the explanation? "Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones." So the idea is if we examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, what are we going to find? Is our faith in Christ genuine? Heartfelt? If so, then we can be sure we are "of the faith" by which scripture means a born anew believer saved by Christ forever.

Do we find "dead faith" from which obedience to Christ does not flow? Not a good sign.
Do we find we practice lawlessness? Not a good sign.

1 Peter 1:3-5 teaches (I believe) that God protects our faith such that we can never lose it, once we are born anew. So when we examine ourselves (2 Corinthians 13:5) we should find evidence of being indwelt (fruit of the Spirit) and evidence of "live faith" from which faithfulness flows.

 

[Derf B]

Apparently you posted this before reading post #25.


I chose in this thread to focus on the biblical doctrine of election.

I see you think "Trust in Faith" is tautological. But did you read the explanation? "Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones." So the idea is if we examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, what are we going to find? Is our faith in Christ genuine? Heartfelt? If so, then we can be sure we are "of the faith" by which scripture means a born anew believer saved by Christ forever.

Do we find "dead faith" from which obedience to Christ does not flow? Not a good sign.
Do we find we practice lawlessness? Not a good sign.

1 Peter 1:3-5 teaches (I believe) that God protects our faith such that we can never lose it, once we are born anew. So when we examine ourselves (2 Corinthians 13:5) we should find evidence of being indwelt (fruit of the Spirit) and evidence of "live faith" from which faithfulness flows.

Hmmm. I think your explanation made it worse.

If God protects the faith of His chosen ones, why Rom 10? Especially Romans 10:1 (KJV) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.


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[AustinC]

1) Everytime we see "his faith" or "your faith" in scripture Calvinism says "taint so" it really means "his God instilled via irresistible grace faith." Rewriting scripture after scripture to make it of no effect is not wise. His faith means his faith.

Wrong. When faith is mentioned I know that God gave that person faith. They didn't conjure it up from themselves.

2) Ephesians 2:1-9 says God gracious gift is salvation, and that salvation is gifted based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. Thus we see "through faith." Since the gift is obtained through faith we had faith before we received the gift of salvation.

Nowhere in the Bible does God separate the gracious choice to save a person from the gracious gift to give that redeemed person the faith to believe. You are adding to Ephesians 2:1-9 what is not there.

3) God does credit human faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5; Romans 4:23-24.

These people in Romans 4 are already Redeemed, chosen, made alive saints who have been given the gift of faith.
Without God's gift, they could not have faith.

4) The biblical doctrine of election is based on scripture, and not on man-made doctrine.

Correct
Your concept of election is coming from your man-made misunderstanding of faith, which is why you are so off-base and have been refuted on this site since the day you appeared.

 

[AustinC]

Apparently you posted this before reading post #25.


I chose in this thread to focus on the biblical doctrine of election.

I see you think "Trust in Faith" is tautological. But did you read the explanation? "Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones." So the idea is if we examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, what are we going to find? Is our faith in Christ genuine? Heartfelt? If so, then we can be sure we are "of the faith" by which scripture means a born anew believer saved by Christ forever.

Do we find "dead faith" from which obedience to Christ does not flow? Not a good sign.
Do we find we practice lawlessness? Not a good sign.

1 Peter 1:3-5 teaches (I believe) that God protects our faith such that we can never lose it, once we are born anew. So when we examine ourselves (2 Corinthians 13:5) we should find evidence of being indwelt (fruit of the Spirit) and evidence of "live faith" from which faithfulness flows.

Be honest, you chose to push YOUR version of election, which completely bungles faith.

 

[1689Dave]

Why the election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate:

If we had been chosen individually before creation, they we would always have been a people chosen by God. We would never have existed as "not a people." However 1 Peter 2:10 says we were once "not a people." Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, not individual. It is a lock.

The election spoken of was contained in the Promise to Abraham. A gentile seed of specific believers, written in the book of life from eternity.

 

[Alan Gross]

The point is God must credit our faith as righteousness. Say some very well studied and brilliant person knows scripture and can repeat back every salient point of the gospel of Christ, does God credit his "faith" as righteousness? Or how about a dumb fisherman who loves Christ so much he is willing to die for Him. Would God credit his faith, full of inaccurate beliefs, as righteousness? Read James 2:5 and tell me what scripture says.

I'm not following this thing.

God Did not, Does Not, and Would never have Had "Righteousness" Inherent withing Himself, apart from Jesus Christ Having Lived Perfectly under The Universal Moral Law AND Obtaining Righteousness, for His children, at The Cross.

 

[MB]

Apparently you posted this before reading post #25.


I chose in this thread to focus on the biblical doctrine of election.

I see you think "Trust in Faith" is tautological. But did you read the explanation? "Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones." So the idea is if we examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith, what are we going to find? Is our faith in Christ genuine? Heartfelt? If so, then we can be sure we are "of the faith" by which scripture means a born anew believer saved by Christ forever.

Do we find "dead faith" from which obedience to Christ does not flow? Not a good sign.
Do we find we practice lawlessness? Not a good sign.

1 Peter 1:3-5 teaches (I believe) that God protects our faith such that we can never lose it, once we are born anew. So when we examine ourselves (2 Corinthians 13:5) we should find evidence of being indwelt (fruit of the Spirit) and evidence of "live faith" from which faithfulness flows.

Yet not once does God ever say gentiles are elect. There nothing that can turn Gentiles in to the elect. We are already Gentiles. Chosen to Salvation ? yes but only after one has faith.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Yet not once does God ever say gentiles are elect. There nothing that can turn Gentiles in to the elect. We are already Gentiles. Chosen to Salvation ? yes but only after one has faith.
MB

You have this backward. If you are correct, then you better start striving and working and disciplining yourself to create the faith that will cause God to choose you. How hard do you have to work, MB? Perhaps you have failed to have faith and are therefore not chosen? How would you even know? God may look upon you and say you don't have the faith necessary to be chosen and thus you are thrown into outer darkness where their is weeping and gnashing of teeth. You better get this right, MB, or you're cooked.

 

[Alan Gross]

You have this backward. If you are correct, then you better start striving and working and disciplining yourself to create the faith that will cause God to choose you. How hard do you have to work, MB? Perhaps you have failed to have faith and are therefore not chosen? How would you even know? God may look upon you and say you don't have the faith necessary to be chosen and thus you are thrown into outer darkness where their is weeping and gnashing of teeth. You better get this right, MB, or you're cooked.

I know about the ones that have fallen short of The Glory of God.

 

[Alan Gross]

This is about the biblical doctrine of Election. Thus about God choosing believers for salvation.

Why did you change God's Doctrine of Election into waiting for a sin-cursed lost person to, in every way, 'elect themselves' to salvation? Before God is 'allowed', or something?

Wrong God.

 

[Van]

Hmmm. I think your explanation made it worse.

If God protects the faith of His chosen ones, why Rom 10? Especially Romans 10:1 (KJV) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
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Sir, I provided the scriptural basis for "Trust in Faith." Your reference to Romans 10 is totally non-germane. And you did not answer my questions.

 

[Van]

Wrong. When faith is mentioned I know that God gave that person faith. They didn't conjure it up from themselves.

Nowhere in the Bible does God separate the gracious choice to save a person from the gracious gift to give that redeemed person the faith to believe. You are adding to Ephesians 2:1-9 what is not there.

These people in Romans 4 are already Redeemed, chosen, made alive saints who have been given the gift of faith.
Without God's gift, they could not have faith.

Correct
Your concept of election is coming from your man-made misunderstanding of faith, which is why you are so off-base and have been refuted on this site since the day you appeared.

Yet another non-germane post of nonsense, ignoring the scripture that precludes the gift of faith, i.e we obtain access to the grace in which we stand through or on the basis of faith. Calvinism is obviously false.

 

[Van]

Be honest, you chose to push YOUR version of election, which completely bungles faith.

Smokescreed #4