Partial Preterism 2

[prophecy70]

evelation confirms this and also confirms the length of time the anti-Christ will rule from the Temple mount.

Put down the left behind books, and now open the bible and inform me, where do you get the "anti-christ" in Revelation?

 

[prophecy70]

Jerusalem was NOT surrounded by armies in 70AD. It was surrounded by ONE army! But lets say Luke 21 is about Jerusalem's destruction.

You can't be serious right now.

 

[robycop3]

To dovetail on that question, what events did the generation that Jesus spoke to NOT see? (Just a "heads up", but I'll only be here for another 45 minutes, then my wife and I are heading our for a nice long weekend.)

They did not see the Jews building a 3rd temple in Jerusalem, nor the coming of the "beast" to power, the mark of the beast, the great tribulation, the abomination of desolation, and certainly not the return of Jesus. That's just a short list.

 

[robycop3]

Looking for info: Partial Preterism


what events are needed for the Generation to see?

All the eschatological events.

 

[robycop3]

Matthew 24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point outto him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these,do you not? Truly, I say to you, uthere will not be left here one stone upon another thatwill not be thrown down.”

so which generation seen this?

Luke 21: 20 “But jwhen you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that kits desolationhas come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those whoare inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for theseare ldays of mvengeance, to fulfill nall that is written. 23 oAlas for women who arepregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be greatdistress upon the earth and pwrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of thesword and qbe led captive among all nations, and rJerusalem will be trampled underfootby the Gentiles, suntil the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Matthew 24 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.



And this?

That was NOT the Jerusalem sieges of 68-70 AD. The first one occurred when a Roman army led by Vespasian besieged J. He & that army left when tidings of nero's death & Galba's assuming the Caesarship reached him. Some EIGHT MONTHS passed before several other Roman armies led by Titus besieged J again. After Vespasian's siege, there was plenty of time for those wishing to flee J to have done so. Thus, Jesus was speaking of a still-future event when He told people they were to flee IMMEDIATELY upon seeing J surrounded by an army.

He did say that when they saw J surrounded by armies that ITS desolation was near. That was NOT the "abomination of desolation". However, especially during Vespasian's siege, more than one person in Jerusalem came out & surrendered to the Romans who spared their lives.

And the great trib will be WORLDWIDE. Rev. 16 gives a quick look at some of its events. Obviously, they haven't yet occurred.

For the sake of discussion, let's pretend the great trib is limited to the Jews. OK, the destruction of J & the temple was a catastrophe to the Jews. But a WORSE one occurred in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled the Jews from their land & gave that land to the Philistines. Then came the nazi holocaust of 1933-45. Very-obviously, that was a FAR-GREATER calamity to the Jews than the events of 70 AD! So the preterist argument holds no water either way!

 

[robycop3]

NOT ONE Preterist has ever been able to make sense of all the signs Jesus mentioned in Chapter 24. The signs that he said the generation that sees them PASS, would NOT pass, until ALL of them be fulfilled. Mathew 24 is more about THE SIGNS THAT PRECEED JESUS' RETURN AND THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE! How could all of the things mentioned in the chapter have occurred within a span of just a few years with no record of any of it happening. What DIDN"T happen in 70 AD debunks Preterism! The gospel is still being preached, the times of the gentiles is NOT over, which means we are still in the age of grace which has yet to be consummated.

After Jesus DEPARTED from the temple he said, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." He did NOT specifically prophesy the Temples destruction, he SPECIFICALLY prophesied that THERE WOULD NOT BE one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
"See ye not all these things" included all the buildings and structures on the Temple grounds. And maybe the Western Wall!

View attachment 2778

After the Temples destruction, stones did stand 'one upon another' for over 400 years afterwards!

From ancient records we can glean some information about visible remains of the Temple after its destruction. Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea (A.D. 260-340) testified that he could still see the remains of the sanctuary. He said that the large stone blocks were hauled away to build sanctuaries and theaters.

There are two parts to the current wall. Going from bottom to top, there are the large blocks that make up the lower section of this wall, which is the retaining wall dating to the Second Temple Period. Some people say this was NOT part of the prophecy, and not destroyed. I say it is part of the prophecy! The smaller stones on the top were rebuilt in the years after the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

Muslims deny there's a Jewish connection to the Wailing Wall and want to deny Jews access to it. Many Islamic clerics teach that Jews should be prohibited to pray at the wall. I've read that the director of the Al-Aqsa Mosque once said, "This is a place for Muslims, only Muslims. There is no temple here, only Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock."

We also know that Muslim's want complete control of Jerusalem, especially the Old City. And we know the Palestinian's want it too. They want Jewish control removed to the point of even allowing Jews access to the Old City.

Not one word in Mt. 24 suggest that Christ re-returned, or that "the consummation of the age," or end of the world, happened in and ended in 70 AD.
...and WHAT shall be the sign of thy COMING,

(parousia, the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God)

..and of the END of the WORLD?
The completion of the age where there are no more stones to fall, and where ALL the events of Mathew 24 and of that era pass.

The "Wailing Wall" is not part of the temple, proper. It's part of a wall that once surrounded the entire temple complex. The temple itself was entirely pulled down by the Romans who believed gold had been secreted between ots stones.

 

[robycop3]

If Jesus didm't mean the generation he was speaking to he would have said "that generation" as Martin showed regarding "that day"

Again, you have that HUGE PROBLEM facing you that those prophesied events haven't yet happened!

 

[robycop3]

Im not a full preterist, I believe in a future second coming, so what about what they wrote disagrees with what i'm saying?
Im saying the first half of the discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Yes, the first parts of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled to the letter, exactly as written in their original language.
HOWEVER...
Jerusalem is still trod underfoot by gentiles at this very moment! There's a constant stream of non-Jewish Muslims coming & going to & from the Dome of the Rock & the Al-Aqsa Mosque. And there's a constant parade of non-Jewish Christians coming & going from the various Christian shrines in Jerusalem, as well as non-Jewish tourists from all over the world. Several sections of J are owned & inhabited by Palestinians & other gentiles. There's no sign of those situations changing. In fact, as more & more embassies are now being set up in Jerusalem, there are more & more gentiles occupying them.

The Jews fully intend to build a new temple in J. They have all the building materials ready, & have even consecrated an altar to be placed in it. They have all the instruments to be used in the temple made. They're breeding the animals to be used in temple rites. When the temple is built, it'll be done so very quickly. All the Jews are waiting for is when they can do so without setting off WW3.

 

[robycop3]

1. I think the word is Polony
2. I believe that the times of the gentiles mqay have been fulfilled when Allenby ended Turkish rule over the city in December 1917
Can a non preterist answer that? If you take the time to give a scripture reference to each of your points I will answer them. Good night for now.

Jerusalem's population is roughly 860 K right now. Of that population, about 500K are Jews, 285 K are Muslims of various national descents, 15 K are non-Jewish Christians, & about 10K are non-Jews of various other religions.(Rough estimates from various sources) So, the times of the gentiles are far from over.

The Jews don't seem upset over that situation, nor about the stream of pilgrims of both Islam & Christendom which come & go from J constantly. After all, most world capitals have many foreigner residents & visitors.

 

[robycop3]

Put down the left behind books, and now open the bible and inform me, where do you get the "anti-christ" in Revelation?

The "antichrist" man is clearly implied as being the " a prince who shall come of the people who shall destroy Jerusalem" (Daniel 9:26) , Paul (2Thess. 2:3-4, 8-10), & the angel of the Revelation(Rev. 13, 19).

While John correctly said there were many antichrists in the world, even in that time, we see he refers to a SPECIFIC antichrist in 1 John 2:18.

Even though that term is not found in Revelation, it's clearly implied, same as is the Holy Trinity, although that term doesn't appear in Scripture. And would not anyone who exalts himself above God be an antichrist?

 

[prophecy70]

They did not see the Jews building a 3rd temple in Jerusalem, nor the coming of the "beast" to power, the mark of the beast, the great tribulation, the abomination of desolation, and certainly not the return of Jesus. That's just a short list.

Stop using left behind as your source, the Third temple is no where in the bible.

 

[prophecy70]

He did say that when they saw J surrounded by armies that ITS desolation was near. That was NOT the "abomination of desolation". However, especially during Vespasian's siege, more than one person in Jerusalem came out & surrendered to the Romans who spared their lives.

It was a parallel statement, do you know what that means?

 

[prophecy70]

" a prince who shall come of the people who shall destroy Jerusalem"

Already happened in 70AD.

 

[robycop3]

Stop using left behind as your source, the Third temple is no where in the bible.

It's implied, as the "abomination of desolation" didn't occur in the previous one.

 

[robycop3]

It was a parallel statement, do you know what that means?

Yeah - something prets invent to try to cover their lacka evidence.

 

[David Kent]

Nearly all of Jesus' words in Mathew 24 deal with the signs and events that precede his return. When Jesus said "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down," that WASN'T in response to the disciples three part question. He said that about the stones BEFORE their question, "when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and what are the signs of the CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE?

Then, Jesus never looked back. He never mentioned the stones or the Temple in his reply, he went right off and said, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Mathew 24 isn't so much about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as it is the signs that precede his return!

I wonder if you actually read the scriptures. Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another, to which they asked "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

• Mark 13:1 And as he wen"t out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
• 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
• 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
• 4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

"These things" Matthew asked a supplementary question which had nothing to do with Jesus' remarks. Off topic we would say. " and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus answered those questions separately in reverse order. When ? 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
What sign?

• 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
• 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
• 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be,

It will be sudden no one will know beforehand.

 

[robycop3]

I wonder if you actually read the scriptures. Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another, to which they asked "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

• Mark 13:1 And as he wen"t out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
• 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
• 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
• 4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

"These things" Matthew asked a supplementary question which had nothing to do with Jesus' remarks. Off topic we would say. " and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus answered those questions separately in reverse order. When ? 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
What sign?

• 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
• 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
• 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be,

It will be sudden no one will know beforehand.

Mark likely heard the conversation secondhand. Matthew, who heard it directly, wrote:
Matt. 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Then, Jesus explained the other things.
True, only His Father knows the exact time Jesus will return, but Jesus gave us enough intel to know when the GENERAL TIME will be. He will stop the great trib & there'll be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He shall return.
So, when the beast comes to power, Christians should know Jesus will return within 3.5 years of then. remember, his forces shall trample Jerusalem for 42 months, that is, 3.5 years.(Rev. 11:2)

 

[robycop3]

Already happened in 70AD.

No, that prince hasn't yet come. He will be the 'beast'.

 

[Yeshua1]

I wonder if you actually read the scriptures. Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another, to which they asked "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

• Mark 13:1 And as he wen"t out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
• 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
• 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
• 4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

"These things" Matthew asked a supplementary question which had nothing to do with Jesus' remarks. Off topic we would say. " and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus answered those questions separately in reverse order. When ? 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
What sign?

• 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
• 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
• 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be,

It will be sudden no one will know beforehand.

It did not happen AD 70!

 

[David Kent]

Again, you have that HUGE PROBLEM facing you that those prophesied events haven't yet happened!

The prophecied events that have happened Have, Those that have not yet happened Will,

If Jesus said that generation would not pass away befare that was fulfilled, then it was, What is future begins in verse 36.
See my post #36