Of course he came. Titus came and his people destroyed the temple against his orders. Fulfilled to the letter.
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Partial Preterism 2
- Thread starter prophecy70
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Of course he came. Titus came and his people destroyed the temple against his orders. Fulfilled to the letter.
MMRRPP ! WRONG !
It begins with V. 14. From it, onward, none of the events are found in history.
And the generation that sees the first of the eschatological events will see'em all.
We do not have a complete record of the years leading up to the destruction, only Jesus' prophecy & uninspired & incomplete history. Acts finishes years before the destruction.
The fact that we haven't got information to identify all the prophesied characters does not mean the prophecies didn't happen. Try reading 2 Peter 3.
blacksheep
Member
I'm always serious. It's a dual prophecy.
Prophecy can easily fool us...
There are four possible interpretations.
1. All of Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is past tense. (I disagree with that assumption.)
2. Some prophecies have more than one fulfillment. Part of Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is past tense and part future meaning the prophecy has both a historical and future fulfillment. (For me this is the only logical way to understand them.)
3. All of Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are future.
Similar prophecies about Jerusalem's destruction by OT prophets have the same possibilities. When an impending invasion by Babylon or Assyria was coming, the Prophet often spoke of them just a few years before the invasion occurred. The Luke 21 etc. prophecies presents the same issues and that is, "WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN PROVES A FUTURE FULFILLMENT" or both future and past fulfillment. Things are mentioned in them that DIDN'T OCCUR or can only occur at the PAROUSIA or second coming of Christ.
An example of this is when Habakkuk wrote his book which I believe is completely FUTURE. Israel was soon to be invaded and interpreters believe it's a historical document. In my studies I find the entire book of Habakkuk a FUTURE prophecy. Isaiah 10 & 14 are also misinterpreted HISTORICALLY by futurist. Isaiah 14 &10 were written after Israel fell to the Babylonians and is believed to be about the fall of the Babylonian king Sennacherib, which it is NOT.
In response to the passage...
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, (dual application) then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.(dual application) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
I agree that Luke 21:20-24 occurred in the days approaching 70 AD, but I also believe like other prophecies that it has more than one fulfillment. Why? BECAUSE, (people often don't pay attention to these "insignificant" words.)
Verse 12, "But before all these" and verses 25 - 29 says,
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
In other words. In other words (verse 11 ends with "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled") - verse 12 But before all these clearly states that verses 3-12 only passes AFTER Israel's destruction by the Romans! (NOT before!) IOW Jerusalem's destruction comes BEFORE there be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. BEFORE they are to take heed that they be not deceived: BEFORE many shall come in Jesus' name saying, I am Christ, Before they hear of wars and commotions AND not to be terrified because these things must first come to pass;....NOTE!...... but the end is not by and by. BEFORE nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: BEFORE earthquakes famines and pestilence shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights (translated TERRORISM)...BEFORE great signs shall there be from heaven. Jerusalem is destroyed!
It's clear that Christians were forewarned by Christ about Jerusalem's destruction and nearly all of them fled to the mountains in Pella.
Eusebius: “The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation . . . removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella.” ... Safe at Pella, however, Christians could contemplate the blessing of obeying Christ’s warning.
This will happen again in the future to Israel.
Revelation 12:6 &14
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Here's another example of dual fulfillments.
Mathew 17:11-12.
And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
blacksheep
Member
I've never read one. I'm post trib. The only books I read are resource books.
I hope you don't think the anti-Christ is called "the anti-Christ" in Revelation. There are several names for him and only first John calls him THE ANTI-CHRIST.
I'm sure you already know where HE is mentioned, as a preterist you simply refuse to accept it.
blacksheep
Member
Actually the temple accidentally burned! Stones stood one upon another long after 70 AD.
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blacksheep
Member
I agree. But I can make a pretty good argument that those stones are part of what Jesus was referring to when he said, "see ye not ALL these things?"
Also, Jerusalem will once again fall to the Muslim's in the last days and they may destroy the wall.
Here's an interesting consideration.
The words "daily sacrifice" are mentioned 6 times in Daniel. In Daniel 9:27 the word SACRIFICE IS in the original text and it's used like this....
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I'm not a believer in Daniel's 70th week. I actually take the Preterist/Historical view of it. In Daniel 9:27 the word SACRIFICE is in the text. However, in Daniel 8:11, 12, 13, 11:31, and 12:11, the word SACRIFICE IS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT! Every one of those verse are about the man of sin. It should be worded like this...
Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Daniel 8:12 And an host was given against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
So why do I think that is? Daniel 9:27 is referring to the daily sacrifice in the temple ceasing after the Temples destruction in 70 AD, and that's why the word sacrifice IS in the original text. In every other verse I mentioned above where the word sacrifice is NOT in the original text, it refers to the daily prayers Jews say at the Wailing Wall. Those prayers will cease because the wall will fall after the Muslim's gang up and take East Jerusalem. AND THAT IS THE SIGN OF BIRTHPANGS!
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blacksheep
Member
Preterist would rather believe 21th century people like Gentry, R.C. Sproul, Hank Hanegraaff, DeMar, Darell Myatt, etc., and discredit 1st & 2nd century historians like Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr, Eusebius, and even Jerome, the one who translated the Scriptures into Latin (The Vulgate). He lived from 340 to 419. He states clearly in two places, that John was banished under Domitian and that is when he wrote the Book of Revelation.
It's obvious the times of the gentiles is still going on, given the number of them in Jerusalem. Latest census of Jerusalem shows that only 62% of its inhabitants are Jews. And it's easy to see that the vast majority of new Christians is gentile.(However, many of them may be Israelis that are not of the Jews, who don't know their national ancestry.. But GOD does!)
Herod had to build up the temple mount as the rock was not large enough for his enlarged temple. Josephus said that the temple was completely destroyed and Titus dug up its foundstions, and that Zion was ploughd like a field. In the later rebellion at the time of Hadriam=, they began to try to build the temple again.
Not so. Why do you say things that you are ingnorant of. Jerusalem was not surrounded by armies in AD 70. It was surrounded by armies in AD 66.
October 15-16, 66 C.E.]
Cestius Gallus, Governor of Syria, removes the Twelfth Legion stationed in Antioch, and together with additional infantry, cavalry, and non-Jewish native auxiliaries, marches to Ptolemais with King Agrippa. The total force numbers between 35,000 and 40,000 men. [War 2.18.9]
November 17th
After taking other cties Cestius surrounds Jerusalem
Cestius advances on Jerusalem. He sets fire to to suburban districts, then moves to the wall of the upper city and pitches camp in the vicinity of the royal palace. (2.19.4 528-530)
The principal pro-Roman men of Jerusalem invite Cestius into the city, but he delays. The rebels attack the pro-peace faction and murder their leaders, then bombard the Romans from the wall. After five days, the Romans, heavily shielded, are on the verge of undermining the wall and setting fire to the gate of the Temple. (2.19.5)
Cestius suddenly gives up and retreats from the city "without any reason in the world." [2.19.7 540]
Josephus: "It was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already toward the city and the sanctuary that He delayed from putting an end to the war that very day." [2.19.6 539]
It was during that retreat that the Christians fled from the city according to the command of the Lord.
- Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
- 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
- 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
- 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
- 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
- 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
- 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
- 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
- Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
- 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
- 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
- 17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
- 18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
- 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
- Mark 13:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
- 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
- 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
- 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
- Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
prophecy70
Active Member
It simply means the temple would be destroyed, which happened in that generation.
Do you know where the original statement came that John was banished under Domitian? And the problem with that?
prophecy70
Active Member
No its a single prophecy that already took place up to verse 36 in matthew. You just need to force it into to be a dual prophecy to fit your idea of "the last days"
Mathew 17:11-12.
And Jesus answered and said to them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say to you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD
What dual prophecy is that?
blacksheep
Member
Most of them came from Asia Minor but in 70 AD they were all Roman. This being a dual prophecy, the ARMIES I'm talking about are the armies of Gog and Magog...
EZ. 38 Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarma. ETC.
And nations/people of Psalm 83...
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
The Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, Amalek; the Philistines, Tyre; Assur,
Iran, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, etc.
___________________________________
According to Zechariah 12 and 14, many of them will be positioned in and around Jerusalem, as they will know that Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4). Joel 3 says that there will be a large concentration of troops in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, which is the Kidron Valley between the Old City and the Mount of Olives. Revelation 16:16 states that there will also be a great mustering of multi-national forces in the Valley of Megiddo in Northern Israel. Isaiah 63 says that the southern flank of the troops will reach Bozrah, south of the Dead Sea, before they will be stopped in their tracks. Bozrah is 40 kilometres southeast of the Dead Sea, about halfway between the Dead Sea and Petra. The southern divisions of the Antichrist’s forces will probably be on their way to destroy the remnant of Israel in their mountain fortress in Petra.
The Battle of Armageddon
When the true Messiah, Jesus Christ, returns at the end of the great tribulation, the battle of Armageddon will reach its peak. The Antichrist, the false prophet, the kings of the earth and their armies will be gathered together to make war against Jesus Christ and His heavenly army (Rev. 19:19). The antichristian armies will be deployed in various places in a concerted effort to obliterate the remaining Jews, and also to fight against their coming Messiah. According to Zechariah 12 and 14, many of them will be positioned in and around Jerusalem, as they will know that Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4). Joel 3 says that there will be a large concentration of troops in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, which is the Kidron Valley between the Old City and the Mount of Olives.
Revelation 16:16 states that there will also be a great mustering of multi-national forces in the Valley of Megiddo in Northern Israel. Isaiah 63 says that the southern flank of the troops will reach Bozrah, south of the Dead Sea, before they will be stopped in their tracks. Bozrah is 40 kilometres southeast of the Dead Sea, about halfway between the Dead Sea and Petra. The southern divisions of the Antichrist’s forces will probably be on their way to destroy the remnant of Israel in their mountain fortress in Petra.
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I didn't say he was the beast and bible doesn't say the prince was the beast. Daniel said the PEOPLE of the prince who would come would destroy the city and sanctuary. The prince did come and his people did destroy the city and sanctuary.
If you don't believe that, tell me where is the temple now?
Trying to discuiss scripture with you is like discussing it with JW's. You read it then say something completely different.
Scripture doesn't say that there would be no gentiles in Jerusalem, but that it would be trodden down by gentiles.
Many writers in the past believed that the times of the gentiles began with Nebuchanezzar's madness and the seven times of his madness was prophetic of seven times of the times of the gentiles, or 2520 years.
You have got a vivid imagination.
prophecy70
Active Member
Zachariah 12-14
I will strike every horse rwith panic, and its rider rwith madness. Butfor the sake of the house of Judah I will keep my eyes open, when I strike every horse ofthe peoples rwith blindness
The battle described is on horseback with swords
“And the LORD will give salvation to the tents of Judah first,
Modern Jews do not live in tents
13.2 And also I will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness.
There are no prophets anymore
I can go on, but see the picture, It is not about some futuristic fantasy battle.
blacksheep
Member
Lets see. Jesus said "Elijah is already come." Then he says I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the "great and dreadful day of the LORD."
Do you see a duality here?
I can imagine what you think the great and dreadful day of the LORD is.
Before the Lord returns to destroy them who destroy the earth, he sends Elijah as a witness to the nations. He's believed to be one of two 2 witnesses in Revelation 11.
The day of the Lord is a time of Gods wrath and visitation where ALL PROPHECIES ARE FULFILLED. It's an abomination to say that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD.
The Day of the Lord is longer than a single day, probably 45 days long. It's the time of Christ return where God intervenes on earth to redeem believers, raise the dead, prevent man from annihilating himself, to close the times of the gentiles, to restore Israel to himself, and set up His millennial kingdom. Joel DEPICTS the day of the Lord AS, "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
In the OT the day of the Lord wasn't just ONE event. In the NT it is ONE EVENT and always points to the future.
I'm well aware of the Preterist reply to this.
blacksheep
Member
It's beyond obvious to most people, but Preterist have a fabricated answer for everything.