blacksheep
Member
Maybe you can tell me what armies other than Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD!
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Partial Preterism 2
- Thread starter prophecy70
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blacksheep
Member
Dealing with Zechariah 12...
It's beyond the understanding of a Preterist how a prophet utilizes ancient terminology to describe something in the distant future. That's one big reason for their way of thinking. They have no vision and are prophetically inept.
Maybe looking at the entire context would help, don't you think?
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is STILL a cup of trembling to the Arabs and Muslims.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, what day? The day they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Question: When those who "burdened themselves with the siege against Judah and Jerusalem CUT IN PIECES? When were all the people of the earth be gathered together against it?
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
SMITE: to strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill.
When were the horses of Israel's invading army smote with astonishment, and the riders with madness? When and how were the eyes of Judah/Israel OPENED and every horse of the people smote with blindness? The better question is, How did Israel PREVAIL against Rome in 70 AD? These words clearly describe Israel prevailing over its enemies!
And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
70 AD??? They were dispersed!
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
When did the governors of Judah/Israel "devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
A tent a, dwelling, a home, habitation." Get it?
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Something tells me the Lord DIDN"T defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The later part, "and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them" is speaking about the Millennial reign - the thousand years!
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Yep! That happened in 70 AD!
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In other words, Israel is RESTORED! Yep! That happened in 70 AD!
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon refers to the mourning over King Josiah's death where the entire nation of Israel wept bitterly.
Megiddon....the location of the Battle of Armageddon!
There's great mourning because not only was Israel is in the midst of several invading armies, but she is in the midst of repentance. Its a national day mourning and finally realized their greatest sin - rejecting Jesus.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
This indicates that individual Jews everywhere will repent as well as mass repentance across all of Israel.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
When did Judah devour all the people round about? That's never happened, Jerusalem is surrounded by enemies.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
70 AD?........Riiiiiiiiiiiiight!
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
You are right, there are no more prophets. But Zech. 13.2 deals with false prophets.
Can you see what I mean by "WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN DEBUNKS PRETERISM?
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I believe it's common knowledge that the Romans destroyed J & the temple then. What Daniel's prophecy shows is that the 'beast' will be of Roman descent, & no new one has been built since then. However, that covers a lotta ground, as there are descendants of Romans all over the world.
And J IS somewhat beaten down by gentiles, as only 62 % of its inhabitants are Jews. And the Jews don't dare try to stop the immense non-Jewish traffic coming & going from J.
God described the coming events in terms that His immediate audience would understand. "The sword" almost always represented an army; that, of course, has been replaced by "the gun", horses almost-entirely replaced by motorized metal vehicles, etc.
THe OC prophets, apart from Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi prophesied before or during the Babylonian exile. Generally they prophesied -
warnings & calls to repentance;
warnings of invasion;
promises of restoration;
encouragement of the faithful remnant in every generation;
prophecy of the Messiah, the Branch/Son of David who would accomplish the promised restoration;
prophecy of a New Covenant through the Messiah;
a fulfilment/end of the OC;
an eternal state of blessing.
We can therefore see the fulfilment of OC prophecy as -
imminent invasion in the lifetime of those hearing the prophecy, & restoration of the nation after repentance, normally within one generation (35-40 years) but in the case of Babylon, double that - 70 years;
the coming of Messiah perfects & ends the OC prophecies bringing about a new situation spoken of a "mystery" revealed by NC writers;
a perfect fulfilment of the Covenant promises to the Patriarchs, including the redeemed from all nations in a New Heaven & New Earth.
They NC writers do not consider the OC prophecy requires a yet future situation involving ethnic Israel as a restored nation suffering destruction & then a personal intervention by the LORD Jesus as an earth King reigning in Jerusalem, nor a third temple including animal sacrifices. Many thousands of Judaean Jews, Proselytes & exiled Israelites were saved by the Gospel & formed the NC church as recorded in Acts, and which soon included Gentiles without circumcision.
Jesus & the NC writers do not prophecy a physical, carnal, earthly fulfilment of prophecy for Israel apart from a NH&NE. They see the believers in Messiah as the redeemed people of God - "my people" - without regard for ethnicity. By faith children of Abraham.
Revelation should be understood in terms of the writings of John's fellow Apostles, not as a stand-alone prophecy.
Therefore the concept of dual- or multi-fulfilment of prophecy should be guided specifically by the NC writings, not by reinterpretation of OC prophecy.
We hear much from various schools of futurists about LITERAL fulfilment of prophecy, normally as yet future fulfilment rather than to the generation that heard the prophecy & the associated call to repentance & promise of restoration. Your interpretation of Habakkuk is an extraordinary non-literal approach.
In Hab. 1 the prophet is concerned with the corrupt spiritual state of the people of Judah. The LORD replies that he will deal with that situation by invasion by the Babylonians.
After further argument & discussion with the LORD, and the encouragement that "the just will live by faith" in Hab. 2, Habakkuk in Hab. 3 accepts the situation and prays for revival, "in wrath remember mercy" remembering God's past dealings with the nation in detail - see the cross references to the historical incidents.
He concludes with his own declaration of faith through whatever adversity follows, "I will be joyful in God my Saviour."
All this can & should, of course, be applied to every situation including our own, as Jesus does, but is not still future prophecy. We learn from Scripture & apply its truths but should not claim specific fulfilment to our own or of some future generation. We have A Gospel message & encouragement to live faithful lives.
All this futurism is a distraction. Prophecy was fulfilled in the coming & saving work of our Messiah, & the AD 70 eradication of the OC rituals.
blacksheep
Member
What prophecy in Daniel shows the beast is of Roman descent?
blacksheep
Member
Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldean's, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs. They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves. Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat. They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
The Chaldeans are the Babylonians, they are todays Arabs and Muslims. The big question is in whose days. Is Habakkuk's prophecy directed toward Judah? Look at the text carefully, it's directed to the nations/heathen NOT Habakkuk. Judah isn't implied and neither is Habakkuk's time period.
If we are to assume that Habakkuk 1 was fulfilled in his time, then we should see something in the text implying a siege, captivity, slavery, destruction of Jerusalem, and the destruction and pillaging of the temple in the chapter. We should see something in Hab.1 that resembles what actually took place in Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Judah. The problem is that very little in the passage is close to what actually took place.
Nebuchadnezzar didn't use terror, murder, violence, and such. His tactics were NOT terrible and dreadful. He surrounded the city and stopped everything from going in and out of it, and was able to take the city within 3 months. Most of the inhabitants were spared! He took most of Judah's elite captive, and left the rest of the peasants behind. He didn't destroy and pillaged the Temple and level the city and the temple until after the 3rd siege of Nebuchadnezzar. 2 Kings 25:1-10.
For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which...
....shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not
theirs...
The Babylonian Empire was not a big Empire. The Persian, Grecian, and Roman Empires were much larger. Babylon did not march through the "breadth (wide expanse) of the land to possess dwelling places that are not theirs." Jihadist foreign fighters fit this well both worldwide and in the Mid-East region.
"They shall come all for violence: (Terrorism) their faces shall sup up as the east wind, (Islamic form of worship) and they shall gather the captivity as the sand. (World domination)"
Terrorism, their form of worship, and goal of world domination ALL IN ONE VERSE! The 'east wind' is always associated with destruction. Sup up means to do so as a horde or an assembly. Islam is the only religion where it's followers "sup their face up to the east" even 5 times a day.
"The east wind is always associated with evil destructive wind." E. Swedenborg (1688-1772) said, "That wind, and especially the east wind, signifies nothing else than the dispersion of falsities and evils."
Some of the experts believe that Habakkuk chapter 1 is prophecy fulfilled.
But chapter 2 say's...
Habakkuk 2:1-3 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
While the disciples did ask two questions, they were related. The context was the same setting. In Matthew 24:34, Jesus told them that everything He had spoken in answer to both questions would be fulfilled within the lifetime of their generation.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
There is no Biblical support for the Jews building a 3rd temple. They did see the rest of your "short list", though.
Matthew 24:4. "Take heed that no one deceives you......" Hs deceit come to an end since AD 70?
V.5. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and deceive many......." Have false Christs and false prophets come to an end since AD 70?
V.6. "And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See to it that you are not troubled, fo all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." Have wars and rumours of wars stopped since ad 70? Should we be worried by them now that AD 70 is past? Did the end of anything happen in AD 70 or did things continue just as before?
V.7. ".....And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places." Have famines and earthquakes stopped occurring since AD 70?
V.9. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake." Has persecution of Christians stopped since AD 70?
V.10. "And many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another." Has this stopped since AD 70, whether amongst Christians or non-Christians?
V.11. "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many....." Have false prophecy and false teaching stopped since AD 70?
V.12. "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." Did lawlessness cease in AD 70? Does the love of many no longer grow cold?
V.13. "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Are those who endure to the end no longer saved since AD 70?
V.14. "And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come." Had the Gospel been preached to all nations by AD 70? Has the end come and nobody told me?
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not say that deceit, false christs, wars, famines, earthquakes, tribulation, or false prophets would end in AD 70. He was pointing to the specific judgment on Jerusalem that came in the Jewish War of AD 66-70. Those who endured did not perish.
The Gospel has been preached in all the world that Jesus spoke of. The Greek word "oikumene" is used here, which means "inhabited earth". In context, this refers to the Roman Empire. The same word was used in Luke 2:1, where Caesar Augustus took a census of the inhabited earth. The following verses show that the prophecy of verse 14 came to pass.
Romans 10:18 "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Colossians 1:5-6 "of which you have heard the word of truth, the gospel, which has come to you, just as in all the world"
Colossians 1:23 "if indeed you continue in the faith...which was proclaimed in all creation under Heaven".
The end of the Old Covenant age came, and it was announced beforehand. Our modern readers have misinterpreted the signs that were given. I should note that this does NOT negate the Great Commission, which is a call to bring the Gospel to the ends of the earth (kosmos).
prophecy70
Active Member
In Matthew 24, you take prophetic language and make it literal, with the signs in the sun and moon.
Here you take regular language and make it mean something it doesn't, A sword is Gun and A horse is a Ford Mustang.
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prophecy70
Active Member
Oh my....
Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldean's, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs. They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves. Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat. They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
Let me try to impose some modernness to these prophecies.
The Chaldeans are todays Wal-mart
For, lo, I raise up the Chaldean's, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs.
Wal-Mart takes over small businesses that wasn't theirs.
Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
The Eagle is America- Walmart has taken over America.
They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
Again domination of the small business in America.
Daniel 9:26“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Clearly, this could only be the Romans.
There's PLENTY of implied Biblical support for a new temple. The "abomination of desolation" didn't occur in the old temple, so there MUST be a new one for it to occur in.
That's because it IS literal. No rocket science needed, nor any pret imagination.
OK, then, please show us from history when those events DID occur.
WOW! What an imagination! The age of comix didn't end with Stan Lee's death!
Wal-Mart will likely go the way of Sears, J. C. Penney, Robert hall, Woolworth's, Kresge's, etc. when some incompetent management comes in. And I don't know of any Wal-Mart "associates" that violently took over Ma & Pa Kettle's Corner Store.
A little aside: Here's a prophecy being LITERALLY fulfilled this very moment...
Zech. 9:“A mixed race shall settle in Ashdod, And I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.7 I will take away the blood from his mouth, And the abominations from between his teeth. But he who remains, even he shall be for our God, And shall be like a leader in Judah, And Ekron like a Jebusite.
Ashdod was once one of the "Big 5" Philistine cities, but is now part of Israel, being Israel's largest port. And it's inhabited by a mixed population of Jews, Arabs, & Palestinians. And the pride of the Philistines(Palestinians) is indeed cut off there, as they will never again rule Ashdod.
Now we see some Palestinians cooperating fully with Israel's leadership, with some receiving great honor, an example being those Pals, especially one Kamil Hamad who rigged up the cellphone bomb that killed Hamas bomb maker Yahya Ayyash in 1996.
Ekron as a Jebusite? Well, what became of the Jebusites, such as Araunah & his posterity in Jerusalem? They eventually married into & were absorbed by the Jews. Seems that Araunah worshipped God. And Ekron was destroyed C. 604BC by a severe fire, and Nebuchadnezzar's invasion. Its people became scattered among the other Philistines. The site was occupied later by the Romans. But Ekron became as the cities of the Jebusites, either destroyed or occupied by other peoples, as is their old capital, Jerusalem.
Here, we see a clear example of Zechariah's prophecies being LITERAL.
Zech. 9:“A mixed race shall settle in Ashdod, And I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.7 I will take away the blood from his mouth, And the abominations from between his teeth. But he who remains, even he shall be for our God, And shall be like a leader in Judah, And Ekron like a Jebusite.
Ashdod was once one of the "Big 5" Philistine cities, but is now part of Israel, being Israel's largest port. And it's inhabited by a mixed population of Jews, Arabs, & Palestinians. And the pride of the Philistines(Palestinians) is indeed cut off there, as they will never again rule Ashdod.
Now we see some Palestinians cooperating fully with Israel's leadership, with some receiving great honor, an example being those Pals, especially one Kamil Hamad who rigged up the cellphone bomb that killed Hamas bomb maker Yahya Ayyash in 1996.
Ekron as a Jebusite? Well, what became of the Jebusites, such as Araunah & his posterity in Jerusalem? They eventually married into & were absorbed by the Jews. Seems that Araunah worshipped God. And Ekron was destroyed C. 604BC by a severe fire, and Nebuchadnezzar's invasion. Its people became scattered among the other Philistines. The site was occupied later by the Romans. But Ekron became as the cities of the Jebusites, either destroyed or occupied by other peoples, as is their old capital, Jerusalem.
Here, we see a clear example of Zechariah's prophecies being LITERAL.
No, Jesus did NOT tell them that all would be fulfilled within that generation, or it WOULD have been thus fulfilled. Clearly, most has NOT yet been fulfilled, so again, you need to re-evaluate Jesus' words that are translated "this gerenation" in most English translations of Matt. 24. Plainly, He meant another time.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I don't see where you think a 3rd temple is even implied. On the other hand, I see lots of explicit evidence that the only temples in the Bible are Solomon's and the temple rebuilt after the Babylonian exile. Since you accept implicit evidence, I suggest that there is plenty of implied support that the AoD did occur in the Herodian temple.
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