Partial Preterism 2

[prophecy70]

Looking for info: Partial Preterism

I've read it and done several word studies on it.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Antecedent, definition - a preceding event, condition, or cause.

What's the antecedent to THIS GENERATION? Answer - the generation that SEES ALL theses things, i.e. the events Jesus mentioned between verses 3-33. NOT the generation Jesus is Speaking to!

THIS (bold is mine) 3778. houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/looking-for-info-partial-preterism.111588/page-11#post-2488718
what events are needed for the Generation to see?

 

[Lodic]

To dovetail on that question, what events did the generation that Jesus spoke to NOT see? (Just a "heads up", but I'll only be here for another 45 minutes, then my wife and I are heading our for a nice long weekend.)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To dovetail on that question, what events did the generation that Jesus spoke to NOT see? (Just a "heads up", but I'll only be here for another 45 minutes, then my wife and I are heading our for a nice long weekend.)

What needs to be understood in Matthew 24 is that the disciples ask Him not one, but two (at least) questions.
1. When will these things (destruction of Jerusalem) be?
2. what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

Therefore it is necessary to distinguish between "All these things" (verse 33. Gk. panta tauta) and "Of that day" (Verses 36. Gk. peri de tes hemeras ekeines). Greek very often uses the Greek words for 'this' and 'that' to make a contrast and so it is here. 'These things' are the destruction of Jerusalem and the surrounding horrors. Of these there will be signs (verse 32), as indeed there were. The war went on for four years and the end was predictable for some time. But of 'That day' -- the day of our Lord's return, there will be no sign (verse 42). Christ is coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2; Revelation 16:15). We are to keep watch.

 

[blacksheep]

Looking for info: Partial Preterism


what events are needed for the Generation to see?

Are you telling me you don't know?

 

[blacksheep]

What needs to be understood in Matthew 24 is that the disciples ask Him not one, but two (at least) questions.
1. When will these things (destruction of Jerusalem) be?
2. what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

Therefore it is necessary to distinguish between "All these things" (verse 33. Gk. panta tauta) and "Of that day" (Verses 36. Gk. peri de tes hemeras ekeines). Greek very often uses the Greek words for 'this' and 'that' to make a contrast and so it is here. 'These things' are the destruction of Jerusalem and the surrounding horrors. Of these there will be signs (verse 32), as indeed there were. The war went on for four years and the end was predictable for some time. But of 'That day' -- the day of our Lord's return, there will be no sign (verse 42). Christ is coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2; Revelation 16:15). We are to keep watch.

The antecedent to the word THIS in verse 34, In Other Words what identifies THIS GENERATION is verse 33 are those who SEE all these things! It's not that difficult to figure out!

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus was talking about the generation of people who would be alive during the events leading up to His Second Coming, that is, during the time of tribulation.

 

[prophecy70]

The antecedent to the word THIS in verse 34, In Other Words what identifies THIS GENERATION is verse 33 are those who SEE all these things! It's not that difficult to figure out!

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus was talking about the generation of people who would be alive during the events leading up to His Second Coming, that is, during the time of tribulation.

Matthew 24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point outto him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these,do you not? Truly, I say to you, uthere will not be left here one stone upon another thatwill not be thrown down.”

so which generation seen this?

Luke 21: 20 “But jwhen you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that kits desolationhas come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those whoare inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for theseare ldays of mvengeance, to fulfill nall that is written. 23 oAlas for women who arepregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be greatdistress upon the earth and pwrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of thesword and qbe led captive among all nations, and rJerusalem will be trampled underfootby the Gentiles, suntil the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Matthew 24 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.



And this?

 

[blacksheep]

Matthew 24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point outto him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these,do you not? Truly, I say to you, uthere will not be left here one stone upon another thatwill not be thrown down.”
so which generation seen this?
Luke 21: 20 “But jwhen you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that kits desolationhas come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those whoare inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for theseare ldays of mvengeance, to fulfill nall that is written. 23 oAlas for women who arepregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be greatdistress upon the earth and pwrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of thesword and qbe led captive among all nations, and rJerusalem will be trampled underfootby the Gentiles, suntil the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Matthew 24 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
And this?

NOT ONE Preterist has ever been able to make sense of all the signs Jesus mentioned in Chapter 24. The signs that he said the generation that sees them PASS, would NOT pass, until ALL of them be fulfilled. Mathew 24 is more about THE SIGNS THAT PRECEED JESUS' RETURN AND THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE! How could all of the things mentioned in the chapter have occurred within a span of just a few years with no record of any of it happening. What DIDN"T happen in 70 AD debunks Preterism! The gospel is still being preached, the times of the gentiles is NOT over, which means we are still in the age of grace which has yet to be consummated.

After Jesus DEPARTED from the temple he said, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." He did NOT specifically prophesy the Temples destruction, he SPECIFICALLY prophesied that THERE WOULD NOT BE one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
"See ye not all these things" included all the buildings and structures on the Temple grounds. And maybe the Western Wall!



After the Temples destruction, stones did stand 'one upon another' for over 400 years afterwards!

From ancient records we can glean some information about visible remains of the Temple after its destruction. Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea (A.D. 260-340) testified that he could still see the remains of the sanctuary. He said that the large stone blocks were hauled away to build sanctuaries and theaters.

There are two parts to the current wall. Going from bottom to top, there are the large blocks that make up the lower section of this wall, which is the retaining wall dating to the Second Temple Period. Some people say this was NOT part of the prophecy, and not destroyed. I say it is part of the prophecy! The smaller stones on the top were rebuilt in the years after the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

Muslims deny there's a Jewish connection to the Wailing Wall and want to deny Jews access to it. Many Islamic clerics teach that Jews should be prohibited to pray at the wall. I've read that the director of the Al-Aqsa Mosque once said, "This is a place for Muslims, only Muslims. There is no temple here, only Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock."

We also know that Muslim's want complete control of Jerusalem, especially the Old City. And we know the Palestinian's want it too. They want Jewish control removed to the point of even allowing Jews access to the Old City.

Not one word in Mt. 24 suggest that Christ re-returned, or that "the consummation of the age," or end of the world, happened in and ended in 70 AD.
...and WHAT shall be the sign of thy COMING,

(parousia, the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God)

..and of the END of the WORLD?
The completion of the age where there are no more stones to fall, and where ALL the events of Mathew 24 and of that era pass.

 

[prophecy70]

NOT ONE Preterist has ever been able to make sense of all the signs Jesus mentioned in Chapter 24. The signs that he said the generation that sees them PASS, would NOT pass, until ALL of them be fulfilled. Mathew 24 is more about THE SIGNS THAT PRECEED JESUS' RETURN AND THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE! How could all of the things mentioned in the chapter have occurred within a span of just a few years with no record of any of it happening. What DIDN"T happen in 70 AD debunks Preterism! The gospel is still being preached, the times of the gentiles is NOT over, which means we are still in the age of grace which has yet to be consummated.

After Jesus DEPARTED from the temple he said, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." He did NOT specifically prophesy the Temples destruction, he SPECIFICALLY prophesied that THERE WOULD NOT BE one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
"See ye not all these things" included all the buildings and structures on the Temple grounds. And maybe the Western Wall!

View attachment 2778

After the Temples destruction, stones did stand 'one upon another' for over 400 years afterwards!

From ancient records we can glean some information about visible remains of the Temple after its destruction. Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea (A.D. 260-340) testified that he could still see the remains of the sanctuary. He said that the large stone blocks were hauled away to build sanctuaries and theaters.

There are two parts to the current wall. Going from bottom to top, there are the large blocks that make up the lower section of this wall, which is the retaining wall dating to the Second Temple Period. Some people say this was NOT part of the prophecy, and not destroyed. I say it is part of the prophecy! The smaller stones on the top were rebuilt in the years after the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

Muslims deny there's a Jewish connection to the Wailing Wall and want to deny Jews access to it. Many Islamic clerics teach that Jews should be prohibited to pray at the wall. I've read that the director of the Al-Aqsa Mosque once said, "This is a place for Muslims, only Muslims. There is no temple here, only Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock."

We also know that Muslim's want complete control of Jerusalem, especially the Old City. And we know the Palestinian's want it too. They want Jewish control removed to the point of even allowing Jews access to the Old City.

Not one word in Mt. 24 suggest that Christ re-returned, or that "the consummation of the age," or end of the world, happened in and ended in 70 AD.
...and WHAT shall be the sign of thy COMING,

(parousia, the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God)

..and of the END of the WORLD?
The completion of the age where there are no more stones to fall, and where ALL the events of Mathew 24 and of that era pass.

The western wall does not have to be included in the prophecy.

After Jesus DEPARTED from the temple he said, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." He did NOT specifically prophesy the Temples destruction, he SPECIFICALLY prophesied that THERE WOULD NOT BE one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

That sounds to me a prophecy of the destruction of the temple that ironically happened in that generation.

If you are thinking its still going even today I even can make a prophecy about my house, In 2000+ plus years not one board will be nailed to another, what in the world kind of significance is that.

 

[prophecy70]

OT ONE Preterist has ever been able to make sense of all the signs Jesus mentioned in Chapter 24. The signs that he said the generation that sees them PASS, would NOT pass, until ALL of them be fulfilled. Mathew 24 is more about THE SIGNS THAT PRECEED JESUS' RETURN AND THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE!

There are two answers to that.

1. What age were they in at the time? The jewish age, the temple was still standing. It is about the end of the Jewish economy and thus all one description of one question

2. If its not just one event and the end of the age is actually about the second coming, In verse 36 it makes a transition But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

All the preceding events (destruction of the temple) had a time frame (that generation, which happened, 40 years later) But the second coming has no time frame.

 

[blacksheep]

The western wall does not have to be included in the prophecy.




That sounds to me a prophecy of the destruction of the temple that ironically happened in that generation.

If you are thinking its still going even today I even can make a prophecy about my house, In 2000+ plus years not one board will be nailed to another, what in the world kind of significance is that.

The Western Wall doesn't have to be EXcluded from the prophecy! The words of Jesus clearly state it's ONE STONE STANDING UPON ANOTHER, not just the temples destruction. There were several building on the Mount. What proves the entire prophecy isn't fulfilled is WHAT DIDN"T happen in 70 AD. The Mathew 24 is more about the signs that precede the Lords return at the consummation of the age than the Temples destruction which in essence is only alluded to.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What end? The end of the age. The gospel is still being preached and the end hasn't come. I could ask any Preterist 12 questions about the signs mentioned in Mathew 24 and how THEY see them fulfilled, and quite honestly, it would be an embarrassment to them.

 

[blacksheep]

There are two answers to that.

1. What age were they in at the time? The jewish age, the temple was still standing. It is about the end of the Jewish economy and thus all one description of one question

2. If its not just one event and the end of the age is actually about the second coming, In verse 36 it makes a transition But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

All the preceding events (destruction of the temple) had a time frame (that generation, which happened, 40 years later) But the second coming has no time frame.

It doesn't matter what age they were in! The question is what generation does the grammar support. The grammar does not SUGGEST IT THE GENERATION OF THE TIME. It clearly suggest it's the generation that SEES "ALL THESE THINGS!"

The Jewish age? Only in the sense of the MESSIAH! The word AEON/AION isn't a Jewish age!

AION G165...

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
   
   
2. the worlds, universe
   
   
3. period of time, age

 

[prophecy70]

I could ask any Preterist 12 questions about the signs mentioned in Mathew 24 and how THEY see them fulfilled, and quite honestly, it would be an embarrassment to them.

Go ahead, I doubt anyone is shaking about it in here.

It doesn't matter what age they were in! The question is what generation does the grammar support. The grammar does not SUGGEST IT THE GENERATION OF THE TIME. It clearly suggest it's the generation that SEES "ALL THESE THINGS!"

The Jewish age? Only in the sense of the MESSIAH! The word AEON/AION isn't a Jewish age!

AION G165...

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
   
   
2. the worlds, universe
   
   
3. period of time, age

What are you talking about? AION can just mean a period of time, age. just like it says?



The generation that will seen all them things, was that current generation that seen everything, within that generation (40 years) in 70AD Just like the text says.

16:Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17:Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
19:But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Wow it almost sounds like a warning to local christians in the area around Jerusalem in the 1st century.

 

[David Kent]

The antecedent to the word THIS in verse 34, In Other Words what identifies THIS GENERATION is verse 33 are those who SEE all these things! It's not that difficult to figure out!

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus was talking about the generation of people who would be alive during the events leading up to His Second Coming, that is, during the time of tribulation.

If Jesus didm't mean the generation he was speaking to he would have said "that generation" as Martin showed regarding "that day"

 

[blacksheep]

Go ahead, I doubt anyone is shaking about it in here.

What are you talking about? AION can just mean a period of time, age. just like it says?

18And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
19:But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Wow it almost sounds like a warning to local christians in the area around Jerusalem in the 1st century.

So the period of time Jesus was replying about was a 35 year period? BALONY!

A warning to local Christians? Right,... until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Jerusalem is still today "trampled underfoot by the Gentiles!"

But why would a Preterist accept that!

So I would like for one Preterist braino explain....

1. How many false Christ came in Jesus name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many between 33 AD and 70 AD?

2. What wars and rumours of wars did the generation of 70 AD hear of? Jesus said the END was not YET!... for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. That throws a wrench into Preterism because what follows the "wars and rumours of wars" are verses 6-45 which covers the NOT YET!

3. What nation rose against nation?

4..What kingdom against kingdom rose?

5. : What famines took place?

6. What pestilences killed thousands?

7. What earthquakes in divers places occurred?

NOTE: 3-7 are "All these are the beginning of sorrows." The END is still NOT YET!

8. What Christians and Jews were "delivered up (to be afflicted and killed?)

9. Who are the many that were many be offended and betrayed?

10. Who was it that "hated one another?"

11. Who were the false prophets that rose and deceived many?

12. What widespread lawlessness was taking place where love grew cold?

13. Who endured unto the end and was saved?

14. How could the end come in 70 AD when the gospel of the kingdom is STILL being preached all the world for a witness unto all nations?

15. Who was the abomination of Desolation that stood in the holy place?

16. How was 70 AD the great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...when dozens of events SINCE 70AD far outdid those of 70 AD?

17. How were those days shortened for the elects sake?

18. Who were the false Christs and false prophets that rose up and showed great signs and wonders before Jerusalem's destruction?

19. What record was documented that the Lord returned and lightning came out of the east and shined even unto the west?

20. After 70 AD how was the sun be darkened?"

21. How did the moon not give her light?

22. How did the stars shall fall from heaven?

23. How were the powers of the heavens shall be shaken?

24. Who saw the appearance of appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven?

25. What evidence was there Jesus sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet?

26. What evidence was there that the elect was gathered together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other?

Answer: Daily Double!

Should any of you choose to answer, I know what your answers will be.

It's all about the Jews and the Romans!

 

[blacksheep]

The oldest Christian document known to exist is the Didache. It's a simple collection of early church doctrine. Most scholars believe it was written near the close of the first century, most likely around A.D. 80. It was used and cited by many of the church fathers, as well as by the Christian historian Eusebius (see Eusebius, Church History 3:25), so its early existence is well documented.

The full text of The Didache was lost for centuries and was rediscovered in Constantinople in 1873. This document proves that those who lived through the events of A.D. 70 regarded the events spoken of in Matthew 24-25 as yet to be fulfilled prophecy.

This early Didache mentions the Antichrist, the great tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ as events that were YET TO COME. So the Didache is a good piece of evidence from the very believers who lived through the events surrounding A.D. 70 that the preterist view is incorrect.

In addition to the Didache, early church fathers like…

• Papias
• Clement of Rome
• Ignatius
• Polycarp
• and Justin Martyr

ALL WROTE OF A FUTURE SECOND COMING!

 

[prophecy70]

ALL WROTE OF A FUTURE SECOND COMING!

Im not a full preterist, I believe in a future second coming, so what about what they wrote disagrees with what i'm saying?
Im saying the first half of the discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.

 

[blacksheep]

Im not a full preterist, I believe in a future second coming, so what about what they wrote disagrees with what i'm saying?
Im saying the first half of the discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Nearly all of Jesus' words in Mathew 24 deal with the signs and events that precede his return. When Jesus said "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down," that WASN'T in response to the disciples three part question. He said that about the stones BEFORE their question, "when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and what are the signs of the CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE?

Then, Jesus never looked back. He never mentioned the stones or the Temple in his reply, he went right off and said, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Mathew 24 isn't so much about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as it is the signs that precede his return!

 

[David Kent]

So the period of time Jesus was replying about was a 35 year period? BALONY!

A warning to local Christians? Right,... until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Jerusalem is still today "trampled underfoot by the Gentiles!"

But why would a Preterist accept that!

So I would like for one Preterist braino explain....

1. I think the word is Polony
2. I believe that the times of the gentiles mqay have been fulfilled when Allenby ended Turkish rule over the city in December 1917
Can a non preterist answer that? If you take the time to give a scripture reference to each of your points I will answer them. Good night for now.

 

[prophecy70]

Nearly all of Jesus' words in Mathew 24 deal with the signs and events that precede his return. When Jesus said "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down," that WASN'T in response to the disciples three part question. He said that about the stones BEFORE their question, "when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and what are the signs of the CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE?

Then, Jesus never looked back. He never mentioned the stones or the Temple in his reply, he went right off and said, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Mathew 24 isn't so much about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as it is the signs that precede his return!

If you can't understand Matthews account let's look at Lukes, he seems to make it somewhat easier.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Right, nothing about the Destruction of Jerusalem

 

[blacksheep]

If you can't understand Matthews account let's look at Lukes, he seems to make it somewhat easier.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Right, nothing about the Destruction of Jerusalem

Jerusalem was NOT surrounded by armies in 70AD. It was surrounded by ONE army! But lets say Luke 21 is about Jerusalem's destruction. The text says Jerusalem gets trampled underfoot by the Gentiles AFTER Israel is led captive among all nations. Jerusalem is STILL trampled on by the gentiles and will continue to be....UNTILL the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled!

Revelation confirms this and also confirms the length of time the anti-Christ will rule from the Temple mount.

Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.