Pastor compensation

[rickh]

Back to Scripture

The "double honor" is actually referring to "two honors." It means that even though the elder may already be receiving one honor from his livelihood (secular job), he should receive an honor from the church for his actual work as an elder.

Paul said to "count them worthy" of receiving "double honor." He cited a law saying that someone who works should be paid for the labor. He compared this to not muzzling an ox. The idea was that just because the elder already had a livelihood did not mean that the people should expect to receive doctrinal teaching for free. They should count the elders worthy of "double honor" by paying them for this service whereby this compensation means that they receive a second honor because they work two jobs.

Hallelujah! Someone quoted Scripture! Though I may not entirely agree with the interpretation, I am so happy to see someone digging for the answers rather than shooting from the hip. There has only been 2 or 3 posts so far that referenced Scripture. Many churches tend to forget that Scripture addresses the topic of pastoral compensation. A thorough, Biblical study of the topic would be most beneficial before a decision is made about what to pay a pastor. Plus, lots of prayer should accompany the decision. Paying a pastor is not a business decision...it is a spiritual decision. Do we seek God's direction on this or our own???

 

[preachinjesus]

While I applaud the merits of a Scripture based study about paying a pastor it would seem, given the aim of Scripture the point is largely about whether or not to pay the man. This point has been conceded by almost all the posters in this thread.

I don't recall in my studies seeing the point about how much to pay a man being taught as much as just being willing to pay him. If anyone can tell me a specific, biblical amount I'd love to see it...but I'm not holding my breath.

Don't suspect that we are all just "shooting from the hip" because we don't cite chapter and verse for every statement. Almost all of the perspectives here are deeply informed by Scripture.

 

[Jerome]

There truly is nothing new under the sun.

Peddlers of this "plurality of part-time elders" nonsense would do well to consider the counsel of the Baptist Assembly of 1689, John Gill, Andrew Fuller, and Charles Spurgeon:

Crosby's History of the English Baptists:

[The Baptist Assembly of 1689] likewise wrote a general Epistle to the several churches for which they were concerned, in the which they held this as a great evil, and neglect of duty in churches, that they did not make due provision for the maintenance of their ministers, according to their ability; by which means those ministers so unprovided for, were incumber'd with wordly affairs, which render'd them uncapable of performing the duty of their holy calling, in preaching the word, and walking with their flock, as they ought to do.

John Gill, A Body of Practical Divinity:

there may have been, where churches were large, more bishops or pastors in one church, Phil. i.1.

an unpreaching pastor, bishop, or elder, is a contradiction in terms; and such are like those described by the prophet as blind and ignorant watchmen, dumb dogs that cannot bark, shepherds that cannot understand; who every one look for their gain from their quarter, though they do not the duty of their office. But, — 1. Such feed the flock, who do their work aright; give themselves up to the ministry of the word, negect all other services, at least as much as may be, that they may not be entangled with them, and be diverted by them, from their grand employment: to which they have devoted themselves, for the glory of God and the good of souls. Such give attendance to reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine ; and meditate on these things, and give themselves wholly to them, that their profiting may appear to all, and their usefulness to many.

Andrew Fuller, “On Church Government and Discipline”:

…for a small church to have more pastors than one is as unnecessary as to have seven deacons. Such a rule must favor idleness, and confine useful ministers from extending their labours. To place two or three in a post whch might be filled with one, must leave many other places unoccupied. Such a system is more adapted for show than for promoting the kingdom of Christ.

If...a plurality of [elders] be required, why is not a plurality of them supported? The office of elder in those churches which are partial to the system is little more than nominal: for while an elder is employed like other men in the necessary cares of life, he cannot ordinarily fulfil the duties of his office.

Charles Spurgeon, "The Call to the Ministry":

I do not, however, in this lecture allude to occasional preaching, or any other form of ministry common to all the saints, but to the work and office of the bishopric, in which is included both teaching and bearing rule in the church, which requires the dedication of a man's entire life to spiritual work, and separation from every secular calling, 2 Tim. ii. 4; and entitles the man to cast himself for temporal supplies upon the church of God, since he gives up all his time, energies, and endeavours, for the good of those over whom he presides. 1 Cor. ix. 11; 1 Tim. v. 18.

 

[Luke2427]

Good grief, that is the WORST way in the world to pay a minister of God! What a terrible motivation for earning a salary, based on outward appearances. This "solution" assumes that the pastor is the one who causes physical church growth, who works in the hearts of man and causes them to grow spiritually. Bad, bad, bad idea.

It is the HOLY SPIRIT who works in the hearts of man. Many great pastors and missionaries have toiled long and hard, continued to be faithful with little or even NO evidence of what man calls "success." I believe it was A. Judson who did not see a single convert for the first seven years of his ministry, yet the Lord used him mightily over the years.

If we judge "success" by attendance and offerings, it's no wonder our churches are in the spiritual mess they are in today. Smooth-talking wolves like Joel Osteen might pack the pews, but that is not an indication of truly being used of God.

Pray tell, what about growing spiritually is outward?

What about activity without productivity should be rewarded?

I anticipated this kind of response. Nothing I said should indicate that I think it is ALL about numbers. What I purposely avoided is coating the post in spiritual gobbly gook jargon saying things like, "If he never wins a soul so long as he is faithful...." On a subject like this it seems we always have to bend over backwards to pet and pamper the many in ministry who have little to no success. There are many who do not win many souls who do not see much results in their lifetime, but they are faithful and will receive their reward. But there are many more who are doing all the wrong things and preaching all the wrong things- for these reasons they are not successful- they ought not be pampered. They ought to be rebuked and put on the right path.

 

[annsni]

I anticipated this kind of response. Pray tell, what about growing spiritually is outward?

The fruits of the Spirit is outward showing, aren't they? How about disciples who are maturing in the faith? That can be seen on the outside.

What about activity without productivity should be rewarded?

Jesus didn't do so well then, did He? I mean He only had 12 standing with Him and one of those was His own mother. Actually, many of THEM left Him at the end for a time too.

 

[Salty]

...Jesus didn't do so well then, did He?

How about Noah, he preached for 120 years

 

[annsni]

How about Noah, he preached for 120 years

And he only got his family! What a failure!

 

[Luke2427]

I thought of this post when I read this on a blog that I follow. BTW - It's an excellent blog for pastors/elders/church leaders. I'd highly recommend it.



http://briancroft.wordpress.com/201...t-flawed-way-a-pastor-evaluates-his-ministry/

The article is a fine article. I do not undermine any principle it puts forth.

I anticipated this kind of response. Nothing I said should indicate that I think it is ALL about numbers. What I purposely avoided is coating the post in spiritual gobbly gook jargon saying things like, "If he never wins a soul so long as he is faithful...." On a subject like this it seems we always have to bend over backwards to pet and pamper the many in ministry who have little to no success.

Of course there are many who do not win many souls who do not see much results in their lifetime, but they are faithful and will receive their reward. They are, I think, the exception not the rule among those who have no success. There are many more who are doing all the wrong things and preaching all the wrong things- for these reasons they are not successful- they ought not be pampered. They ought to be rebuked and put on the right path. Because they are wasting energy and time with activity without productivity they fail to take their communities for Christ and they fail to help the universal church take our world for Christ.

 

[Luke2427]

The fruits of the Spirit is outward showing, aren't they? How about disciples who are maturing in the faith? That can be seen on the outside.



Jesus didn't do so well then, did He? I mean He only had 12 standing with Him and one of those was His own mother. Actually, many of THEM left Him at the end for a time too.

Jesus started a church with 12. It grew to 120 in three years. In four years it grew to tens of thousands. Today it numbers above a billion.

He said, "I will build my church..." Boy did He!

 

[Luke2427]

How about Noah, he preached for 120 years

Exception, not the rule. There are plenty of exceptions- Jeremiah is another. In this age the field are white unto harvest but the laborers are few.

 

[annsni]

Jesus started a church with 12. It grew to 120 in three years. In four years it grew to tens of thousands. Today it numbers above a billion.

How many followed Jesus at the time of His death? 12. That's it. After His resurrection, the number grew to 120 but before that? Nope. 12.

 

[Jim1999]

I remember preaching at a youth meeting in Barrie, Ontario. None openly received the Lord. Forty years later a local pastor came to me and said, "Thank you." I just looked at him. He then said he had accepted the Lord after a meeting in Barrie and went on to study for ministry.

I just left that meeting some forty years earlier and accepted that nothing had come of it. We don't always see the fruit of our labours, but the Lord does, and He is faithful to His word.

Sometimes pastorates go along a similar path. We toil, preach the word and leave that work as if nothing happened.....Yet, the Lord does His thing. He doesn't need us at that moment, but used us just the same.

Our job is to "go ye into all the world and preach....." The harvest may not be ours to know. Don't judge a preacher by what you do not see. You never know, do you.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Luke2427]

How many followed Jesus at the time of His death? 12. That's it. After His resurrection, the number grew to 120 but before that? Nope. 12.

Jesus said he would build his church, no? He built it. It numbers in the hundreds of millions. He built it. Around the throne will be a congregation so massive that the multitudes cannot be numbered. That will be a church that CHRIST has built.

He had to die to build his church so you are way off.

Furthermore, he said to those twelve- Greater things than these shall ye do...

 

[annsni]

Jesus said he would build his church, no? He built it. It numbers in the hundreds of millions. He built it. Around the throne will be a congregation so massive that the multitudes cannot be numbered. That will be a church that CHRIST has built.

He had to die to build his church so you are way off.

Furthermore, he said to those twelve- Greater things than these shall ye do...

Yep but when we measure with numbers and impact during our ministry, we can see that even Jesus falls short.

But when we understand the long term impact in people's lives, things are QUITE different. :thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

Yep but when we measure with numbers and impact during our ministry, we can see that even Jesus falls short.

But when we understand the long term impact in people's lives, things are QUITE different. :thumbs:

I agree with this one hundred percent, Ann. But too many use this philosophy as an excuse to continue having little results when they could have great results if they practiced and preached and planned the right things. They don't do it because folks like you and I come along with our tales of Jim Elliot never seeing any results and Jeremiah and Noah- then these people who could be doing great things actually develop a spirit of superiority because of their smallness; and they never do great things.

Dreaming big, thinking big ought to be commended- not counted as unspiritual or arrogant. It ought to be embraced not disdained.

The great commission is huge in its scale. It says- Baptize the nations!!!

Thinking small and contentment with smallness should not be petted or pampered or excused when there is a planet to take for Jesus.

 

[abcgrad94]

What about activity without productivity should be rewarded?

Define productivity. Define where in the Bible we are a failure or success based on how many souls we lead to Christ? It's our job to spread the gospel and be faithful. It's the Holy Spirit's job to convict their hearts. We are to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. We are to walk humbly before our God. GOD decides when and where and how to give the increase. That may or may not be something we can see or measure during an entire lifetime, so to base a person's salary on such (or our perception of it) is a grave error.

 

[annsni]

I agree with this one hundred percent, Ann. But too many use this philosophy as an excuse to continue having little results when they could have great results if they practiced and preached and planned the right things. They don't do it because folks like you and I come along with our tales of Jim Elliot never seeing any results and Jeremiah and Noah- then these people who could be doing great things actually develop a spirit of superiority because of their smallness; and they never do great things.

Dreaming big, thinking big ought to be commended- not counted as unspiritual or arrogant. It ought to be embraced not disdained.

The great commission is huge in its scale. It says- Baptize the nations!!!

Thinking small and contentment with smallness should not be petted or pampered or excused when there is a planet to take for Jesus.

Yep but small numbers doesn't mean small ministry work.

We're having the first services of a new church plant on Sunday. We don't know what God is going to do and we trust Him for the souls that will be saved. They will be saved because of Him using Baalam's donkey - speaking in spite of us. We are going to be preaching the Word unapologetically and leave the results to Him. If we stay at small numbers at our church but our people are maturing in the faith and reproducing Christ in the lives of others, then we are doing our job.

 

[abcgrad94]

Yep but small numbers doesn't mean small ministry work.

We're having the first services of a new church plant on Sunday. We don't know what God is going to do and we trust Him for the souls that will be saved. They will be saved because of Him using Baalam's donkey - speaking in spite of us. We are going to be preaching the Word unapologetically and leave the results to Him. If we stay at small numbers at our church but our people are maturing in the faith and reproducing Christ in the lives of others, then we are doing our job.

Exactly. And giving my best may be more or less than another person's best. I don't see how we can pay someone for something that cannot be measured.

 

[annsni]

I think the best thing to do is to pay the pastor the median income of the area he's ministering in. That way all is equal.

 

[Luke2427]

Yep but small numbers doesn't mean small ministry work.

We're having the first services of a new church plant on Sunday. We don't know what God is going to do and we trust Him for the souls that will be saved. They will be saved because of Him using Baalam's donkey - speaking in spite of us. We are going to be preaching the Word unapologetically and leave the results to Him. If we stay at small numbers at our church but our people are maturing in the faith and reproducing Christ in the lives of others, then we are doing our job.

Sure, and commendations on starting that new work!

I just want you and all of us to think big. I hope that you will go to this place praying like John Knox who said, "Give me Scotland or I die"! I pray your attitude is that of George Whitefield, who prayed, "O Lord, give me souls or take my soul"! or like Henry Martyn that you mourn when you see others trapped in false religion and cry out, "I cannot endure existence if Jesus is to be so dishonored"!

God bless you for your willingness to serve the Master!