Pastor warns Christians not to play Mega Millions lotto

[Bobby Hamilton]

point= only money won comes from someone else losing




Money spent in each of these examples is an equall exchange for a service. I provide money to the restraunt, waiter/waitress, cable company, etc for their service. That money is paid in wages/tips for services rendered. I get what I needed/wanted, those providing the service get what they wanted.

You and I gamble on a coin toss. I win. I get your money. I'm happy. You are not. $1 wager, no big deal. No one's life gets changed. Now, I go and spend $75 week on the coin toss. I have to correctly call 100 coin tosses in a row before I can win. I am spending $300 month. You are winning. My child goes hungry, my wife leaves me. Do you say, "Well Keith's an idiot. He shouldn't have lost his money." Is that is too difficult a concept to understand?

The issue here isn't the 1 dollar lotto ticket or the 1 dollar coin toss. It's what happens to the person who can't control themselves or their addiction.

You also can't confuse needs with wants. You want to go out to eat. You want to have cable. You don't need it. You pay for something and you get the service, but it's still a want.

With a lotto ticket, you are paying for the ticket. That's the product, that's the service. It can benefit you, but more than likely it won't. In the same token, I'd say TV doesn't really benefit you...aside from your "want" for entertainment. Some people get their entertainment at the thrill of a lotto ticket. As long as they aren't taking from their needs, I see it just like anything else a person might WANT to spend money on for entertainment (within reason).

 

[DHK]

Again, we're at 16 pages on this and my point is proven:

No one has cited any Bible passage or verse which clearly and specifically prohibits gambling

No one has gotten around to seriously dealing with how playing the lotto is different than casting lots for leadership and decisions in the OT and NT.

If you don't understand that motivation behind the lotto is pure covetousness, and greed, then something is wrong. You would not play it if there was no reward attached to it. You play it because you covet the big prize at the end. Don't say you don't. That is covetousness, pure and simple. You want it, you desire it, you covet it. There is one chance in 174 million that you would get it, thus a waste of money, the money that the Lord enabled you to have; the money that God entrusted you to be a good steward of. You are not being a good steward of the Lord's money. I think you know that.

To say that I can do what I want with my money is not true.
That is the same as the one who says: "I can do what I want with my body," as she legitimizes taking drugs or smoking. As you cannot do what you want with your body, the Temple of God, you cannot do what you want with the Lord's money; it belongs to Him, not to you.

 

[thegospelgeek]

.... As this thread and the others before prove...it does not.[\quote] If your argument is that the word gambling is not in the Bible, you sir have proven your point.

What is the measure for poor decisions? Is it some imputed moralism that appropriates the Bible as a guard when the Bible is actually silent on some matters? This diversion of "gain at someone elses expense" is erroneous and a red herring. No one loses when I go and guy a lotto ticket.

then please xplain to me where the state gets the million dollar payout

As well the point about gambling in the lotto being no different the stock market holds. If you don't think it does let me kindly introduce you to the thousands and thousands recently defrauded by companies who gamble publicly with their money every day on the stock market.

Not even close. If you actually believe this then you cetainly have a poor misunderstanding of the stock market. Stocks are to raise funds for expansion, operating cost, expenses, etc. You purchase the stock with the intent of the company using your money and growing. A great example is the Google IPO which has used the funds to develop the Android OS and increase profits. Google wins, those who purchased stock win, and those who purchase the OS win. No one gained at another expense.

 

[thegospelgeek]

The issue here isn't the 1 dollar lotto ticket or the 1 dollar coin toss. It's what happens to the person who can't control themselves or their addiction.

You also can't confuse needs with wants. You want to go out to eat. You want to have cable. You don't need it. You pay for something and you get the service, but it's still a want.

With a lotto ticket, you are paying for the ticket. That's the product, that's the service. It can benefit you, but more than likely it won't. In the same token, I'd say TV doesn't really benefit you...aside from your "want" for entertainment. Some people get their entertainment at the thrill of a lotto ticket. As long as they aren't taking from their needs, I see it just like anything else a person might WANT to spend money on for entertainment (within reason).

When I eat at the restraunt you can not take me to someone's house and show me where I took from another family to get what I paid for. When I win the lottery you can.

I guess we will have to just disagree.

God Bless,

 

[preachinjesus]

point= only money won comes from someone else losing

Can't this be said about a lot of commercial ventures? I mean really, if I need a new A/C unity for my house that contractor gets/wins my money by me losing it from my bank account.

Its the nature of commerce. Not just limited to what happens in a casino or from a lottery counter.

Money spent in each of these examples is an equall exchange for a service. I provide money to the restraunt, waiter/waitress, cable company, etc for their service. That money is paid in wages/tips for services rendered. I get what I needed/wanted, those providing the service get what they wanted.

You and I gamble on a coin toss. I win. I get your money. I'm happy. You are not. $1 wager, no big deal. No one's life gets changed. Now, I go and spend $75 week on the coin toss. I have to correctly call 100 coin tosses in a row before I can win. I am spending $300 month. You are winning. My child goes hungry, my wife leaves me. Do you say, "Well Keith's an idiot. He shouldn't have lost his money." Is that is too difficult a concept to understand?

But it is a service as well. You provided a service, specifically here let's hone in on the lotto, of a bit of entertainment and fascination in exchange for a piece of paper with a few numbers on it. At the blackjack table the service is being able to blow off some steam and enjoy a game (really no different than a baseball game or football or horse race) that lets us relax a bit. We do this at different levels. If I lose a bit of cash I'm okay with that, part of the deal. Just like when my college football team loses, I'm not terribly upset...maybe a little disappointed...but not angry. That's okay, that's life.

If someone isn't taking care of their family it doesn't directly mean they're gambling their money away. There are lots of things behind that.

Just like with the stock market. I've invested heavily in a few companies from different sectors. Two of them do pretty well and return a healthy dividend. I'm happy with that. Another doesn't and my investment loses money. Part of the deal. Now if I'm taking money that should be going to putting food on the table for my family then I've got a deeper issue...but nobody would say the stock market is inherently immoral...or unbiblical...yet we try to do this with gambling...doesn't work.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

If you don't understand that motivation behind the lotto is pure covetousness, and greed, then something is wrong. You would not play it if there was no reward attached to it. You play it because you covet the big prize at the end. Don't say you don't. That is covetousness, pure and simple. You want it, you desire it, you covet it. There is one chance in 174 million that you would get it, thus a waste of money, the money that the Lord enabled you to have; the money that God entrusted you to be a good steward of. You are not being a good steward of the Lord's money. I think you know that.

To say that I can do what I want with my money is not true.
That is the same as the one who says: "I can do what I want with my body," as she legitimizes taking drugs or smoking. As you cannot do what you want with your body, the Temple of God, you cannot do what you want with the Lord's money; it belongs to Him, not to you.

I'd say that's a pretty vague and general response, don't you? I enjoy playing tennis, but you know what...I want to win. I play it because I like to win. The reward is winning.

I like playing some video games. I play to win. That's the reward. Is there sin in that? To want to win?

I also do competitions that have rewards attached to them as well. I go compete, and I have a chance not to just win, but to win something. Is that wrong? To play to obtain that prize?

Sure if I play the lotto I'm playing hoping that I nail down that prize. But I also go to work everyday hoping that I keep my job and earn my paycheck. I pay into my life insurance policy hoping I don't have to use it (and with Term the % that I will use it is next to nothing) but I have it if I need it.

I'd say anything you spend money on anything you don't need, you aren't being a good steward of your money. At least based on some of your comments anyways. I'd say that's a very logical assumption.

 

[preachinjesus]

If you don't understand that motivation behind the lotto is pure covetousness, and greed, then something is wrong.

Its no more covetousness or greedy than investing in the stock market.

You would not play it if there was no reward attached to it. You play it because you covet the big prize at the end. Don't say you don't. That is covetousness, pure and simple. You want it, you desire it, you covet it. There is one chance in 174 million that you would get it, thus a waste of money, the money that the Lord enabled you to have; the money that God entrusted you to be a good steward of. You are not being a good steward of the Lord's money. I think you know that.

Ah well we've got two arguments here:
1. The good ole "its not a good stewardship of money" bit...which is pointless because who are you to tell me whether I can or can't do this if my fiscal house (as aforementioned) is in order. Pointless argument
2. I don't play unless I think I can win big. Actually, I don't play at all. My argument is that you (and others) can't actually argue consistently that this is a biblical issue. There is no grounds for that. You keep ducking and diving and hoping I'm forgetting that you still haven't made a biblical case. But I haven't forgotten. The chances of winning the lotto are moot...the chances of anything happening at any time are moot too. People play for a variety of reasons. Are you really saying you live a life free of covetousness? You've never desired a new car? You've never wanted a new watch? You've never wanted a better brand of cereal? Really?

To say that I can do what I want with my money is not true.
That is the same as the one who says: "I can do what I want with my body," as she legitimizes taking drugs or smoking. As you cannot do what you want with your body, the Temple of God, you cannot do what you want with the Lord's money; it belongs to Him, not to you.

Well the Bible doesn't say anything about smoking either but that is a side point. The whole metaphor of our bodies being the Temple of the Holy Spirit is primarily about sexual indescretions and breaks down everytime a fat preacher tells people not to smoke while getting ready to head to the buffet again.

I don't see any teachings biblically, definitely nothing you've brought up, to show me I've been given a mandate on how to spend money other than being a good steward. Does the Bible tell me how much to spend on my mortgage? How about my car payment? How about saving for my kids college? Nope. So we're back to my points above.

 

[preachinjesus]

When I eat at the restraunt you can not take me to someone's house and show me where I took from another family to get what I paid for. When I win the lottery you can.

You don't understand how the lottery works if this is your example.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

When I eat at the restraunt you can not take me to someone's house and show me where I took from another family to get what I paid for. When I win the lottery you can.

I guess we will have to just disagree.

God Bless,

You make a lot of inferences here, don't you think?

 

[preachinjesus]

If your argument is that the word gambling is not in the Bible, you sir have proven your point.

Yes and no, my broader point is that it isn't even taught against. How do you reconcile casting lots in the OT and NT?

then please xplain to me where the state gets the million dollar payout

Taxes

Not even close. If you actually believe this then you cetainly have a poor misunderstanding of the stock market. Stocks are to raise funds for expansion, operating cost, expenses, etc. You purchase the stock with the intent of the company using your money and growing. A great example is the Google IPO which has used the funds to develop the Android OS and increase profits. Google wins, those who purchased stock win, and those who purchase the OS win. No one gained at another expense.

I have a pretty good grip on the stock market. Fine, what do you say to the people who invested in Enron, Worldcomm, GM, and Allen Stanford or Bernie Madoff?

They all lost and are losing. They all invested based on being told these companies were in good shape when anything but the truth was being told. How is this different than gambling? My contention is, it isn't. The investors monies paid for planes, vacations, houses, and a lifestyle of the corporate boses...not innovation.

 

[DHK]

Its no more covetousness or greedy than investing in the stock market.

Define "playing" the stock market.
I'm not sure what it is like in the U.S. Here I set up an RESP for my children. (Registered Education Savings Plan). With assistance from one of the bank's finance officers, he offered suggestions on what were good mutual funds to invest in. Within ten years it paid enough dividends to send three children to college. I don't call that a game. I don't call that gambling. I call that a wise use of one's money. It is investment.

Ah well we've got two arguments here:
1. The good ole "its not a good stewardship of money" bit...which is pointless because who are you to tell me whether I can or can't do this if my fiscal house (as aforementioned) is in order. Pointless argument

It is not pointless. Do you pray about playing the lottery; do you pray about giving to missions? Which one do you have peace about?

2. I don't play unless I think I can win big. Actually, I don't play at all. My argument is that you (and others) can't actually argue consistently that this is a biblical issue. There is no grounds for that. You keep ducking and diving and hoping I'm forgetting that you still haven't made a biblical case. But I haven't forgotten. The chances of winning the lotto are moot...the chances of anything happening at any time are moot too.

No they aren't. Millions of people went and wasted money on something that was virtually impossible for them to win. Chances were or one in 174 million or impossible. Thus the motivation is covetousness--hoping to get something they couldn't possibly have. And also spending the money that was the Lord's to begin with, when it could have helped someone else.

People play for a variety of reasons. Are you really saying you live a life free of covetousness? You've never desired a new car? You've never wanted a new watch? You've never wanted a better brand of cereal? Really?

Watches and cereal are within my means. That is not covetousness.
Covetousness is wanting those things that are not within your means to attain, like your neighbor's wife. You can't have her, so why desire to have her. If you can't have a new car, then don't covet one. If you need a new watch, desire a new watch, then the desire (covet means desire) is not wrong. You can go and buy a new watch if it is within your means. Cereal is an essential food for most.

Well the Bible doesn't say anything about smoking either but that is a side point. The whole metaphor of our bodies being the Temple of the Holy Spirit is primarily about sexual indescretions and breaks down everytime a fat preacher tells people not to smoke while getting ready to head to the buffet again.

Sin is sin no matter which way you look at it. All are vices of some sort:
Smoking, drinking, gambling, prostitution, etc.

I don't see any teachings biblically, definitely nothing you've brought up, to show me I've been given a mandate on how to spend money other than being a good steward. Does the Bible tell me how much to spend on my mortgage?

As a matter of fact yes. When I purchased a house I had to be a good steward of my money and reach a place where I knew I could afford the monthly mortgage. If the mortgage payment would be too high I wouldn't be able to do it. I have to take care of my family. A man that doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel. I finally worked it out with the banker to a reasonable amount that I would be able to pay without going into debt.

How about my car payment? How about saving for my kids college? Nope. So we're back to my points above.

They all have to be taken into consideration according to one's income. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Many can't afford a new car. Many simply can't afford the insurance on it; don't realize it, buy the car, and put themselves over their heads in deep debt and in trouble. Yes it does matter. To gamble your money away and put your family at risk matters too.
There was a time in my life where I could tell you where every cent went each month, right down to the penny. A cup of coffee (to buy one) was a luxury then.

 

[preachinjesus]

Define "playing" the stock market.
I'm not sure what it is like in the U.S. Here I set up an RESP for my children. (Registered Education Savings Plan). With assistance from one of the bank's finance officers, he offered suggestions on what were good mutual funds to invest in. Within ten years it paid enough dividends to send three children to college. I don't call that a game. I don't call that gambling. I call that a wise use of one's money. It is investment.

Yet you haven't dealt with my examples raised above: Enron, Worldcomm, GM, etc.

Also...I'll let you know a little bit about me. I grew up in high school and early college days playing blackjack (along with poker...not this texas guess em junk) and had a lot of fun. One of the things I did develop was the ability to count cards in blackjack. I could know, within a reasonable percentage of accuracy, what was coming next. So when I sat down at the blackjack table I was in control within about ten minutes. I knew what was coming and knew how to place my wagers.

How is this different then investing in the stock market?

It is not pointless. Do you pray about playing the lottery; do you pray about giving to missions? Which one do you have peace about?

This is a red herring. What if I told you I prayed before buying a lotto ticket and had a peace about it? Or before I sat down at a poker table?

No they aren't. Millions of people went and wasted money on something that was virtually impossible for them to win. Chances were or one in 174 million or impossible. Thus the motivation is covetousness--hoping to get something they couldn't possibly have. And also spending the money that was the Lord's to begin with, when it could have helped someone else.

The chances that a man could be born and live a sinless life, fulfilling all the Messianic prophecies about Him were pretty thin too...but somebody did it.

See, that is the kind of argumentation that gets us no where. The better argument from your stand point isn't the chances for or against the lottery it is what it does to the poor. (See I'm fair and impartial, I help everyone)

Watches and cereal are within my means. That is not covetousness.
Covetousness is wanting those things that are not within your means to attain, like your neighbor's wife. You can't have her, so why desire to have her. If you can't have a new car, then don't covet one. If you need a new watch, desire a new watch, then the desire (covet means desire) is not wrong. You can go and buy a new watch if it is within your means. Cereal is an essential food for most.

I don't desire my neighbor's wife, but maybe I want his life. My point is that we are all, at some stage, coveting something. Once we understand that it is then, ultimately, just a matter of degrees as to what it is we covet.

Sin is sin no matter which way you look at it. All are vices of some sort:
Smoking, drinking, gambling, prostitution, etc.

Not all sins are equal. First of all you've listed three things that aren't sin and something that is sin, and a grevious sin at that. You can't compare them.

Smoking, drinking, and gambling are not forbidden by the Bible. They might not be wise, but neither is eating at McDonalds if I understand their "nutrition literature."

Prostitution is part of a whole set of sinful activities which are terribly vexing and a different level of sinfulness than say cussing, or lying, or stealing. Sexual sins are more grevious sins biblically.

As a matter of fact yes. When I purchased a house I had to be a good steward of my money and reach a place where I knew I could afford the monthly mortgage. If the mortgage payment would be too high I wouldn't be able to do it. I have to take care of my family. A man that doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel. I finally worked it out with the banker to a reasonable amount that I would be able to pay without going into debt.

They all have to be taken into consideration according to one's income. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Many can't afford a new car. Many simply can't afford the insurance on it; don't realize it, buy the car, and put themselves over their heads in deep debt and in trouble. Yes it does matter. To gamble your money away and put your family at risk matters too.
There was a time in my life where I could tell you where every cent went each month, right down to the penny. A cup of coffee (to buy one) was a luxury then.

Okay, show me the verses that talk about requirements for purchasing a house, working out a mortgage, how much of a car (or camel) one should buy, or how they should specifically sort out their finances in regards to entertainment and food purchases.

Otherwise, I'm going to suggest that all of these issues are peripherial issues based on preference.

Isn't it interesting how on talks like this we end up addressing so many things theologically.

 

[Alcott]

Also, I don't think the "store owners giving away some free food" and the "Landlord not evicting his/her tenant" is comparing apples to apples.

Not sure what that really has to do with the OP though.

It had to do with the post I quoted, which was saying he would not want to face Jesus having been a gambler because gambling takes food away from children and puts people on the streets homeless. So I was asking if he would want to face Jesus under those corresponding circumstances, as in either case the result (or his claim of result) was the same.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

It had to do with the post I quoted, which was saying he would not want to face Jesus having been a gambler because gambling takes food away from children and puts people on the streets homeless. So I was asking if he would want to face Jesus under those corresponding circumstances, as in either case the result (or his claim of result) was the same.

What does the Bible say on how long one should be taken advantage of by someone who is capable and chooses not too?

 

[12strings]

I'll take a crack at a few of these:

If you need a new watch, desire a new watch, then the desire (covet means desire) is not wrong. You can go and buy a new watch if it is within your means.

If a person has a cell phone, they don't need a watch. it is simply a luxury for the person's enjoyment. Money that could have been given to missions, just like the money that could also buy a lottery ticket. If I buy a lottery ticket as a luxury, for my own personal enjoyment...what's the difference?

Even you will not go so far as to say it is always a sin to buy things you don't need.

Sin is sin no matter which way you look at it. All are vices of some sort:
Smoking, drinking, gambling, prostitution, etc.

Lets look at your list:
-Smoking: Not addressed in scripture, could fall under addictions...like coffee.
-Drinking: So it is a sin to drink wine that God says he gave us in order to "to gladden the heart of man." (Ps. 104:15)
-Gambling: Not addressed in scripture,
-prostitution: Immorality, sexual fornication, adultery...Yep, that ones a sin.

One out of four isn't bad...

 

[Havensdad]

Not addressing covetousness, greed, or theft. I am addressing the fact that in the Lottery you are specifically winning money at the expense of others. The verses apply to the fact that we should be concerned with others. My application of the principle is directly concerned with the poor who voluntarily play the lottery at the expense of their family who have no choice in the matter. The government is playing a shell game, providing a false hope to millions of people who spend money they do not have in hopes of winning what they can not win. All winning is someone elses loss. Are you saying that scriture does not address gaining at someone elses expense?

Your argument is absurd. By this logic, you should not do business with ANY store that gets part of its support from alcohol, cigarettes, or other frivolous items. After all, you are helping to support an institution that is causing drunkeness, lung cancer, obesity, and DESTROYING the lives of many poor people...

Sorry, but that is just poor logic. The Bible does not support your socialistic idea that an individual is responsible for what other free thinking members of society do. You are not sinning, by buying cookie dough, just because SOME poor people are morbidly obese, and addicted to cookies. You are not sinning by buying Nyquil, just because SOME POOR PEOPLE are addicted to cough medicine. You are not sinning buying cooking sherry, just because SOME POOR PEOPLE are winos.

That is just a logic-less argument. Again, the Bible says NOTHING about gambling. You are, in fact, sinning, by going beyond what is written...

1Co_4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Mat 15:7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
Mat 15:8 "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mat 15:9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

I am more concerned about violating a REAL Bible command...

 

[Palmer]

I can't afford to gamble.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I see it this way: If it's not God's will for you to win then you won't. If it is His will then you will win. I do know that God said for us not to strive for wealth. Does that include playing a dollar on the lotto and asking God to let you win if it's His will?

Is playing two dollars a week sin? That's what I play--$1 on the Super Lotto and $1 on the Mega Lotto. I've won small amounts but nothing to get excited about--yet.

God did say in Matthew 7:7, "Ask, and it shall be given you." However, it appears that does not include asking for money. So, to what is Matthew 7:7 referring? Ask for what, and for what can we NOT ask?

 

[gb93433]

I see it this way: If it's not God's will for you to win then you won't. If it is His will then you will win. I do know that God said for us not to strive for wealth. Does that include playing a dollar on the lotto and asking God to let you win if it's His will?

Is playing two dollars a week sin? That's what I play--$1 on the Super Lotto and $1 on the Mega Lotto. I've won small amounts but nothing to get excited about--yet.

God did say in Matthew 7:7, "Ask, and it shall be given you." However, it appears that does not include asking for money. So, to what is Matthew 7:7 referring? Ask for what, and for what can we NOT ask?

Time will never be given back once it is gone. So what are you neglecting while you spend time playing Lotto?

The monetary cost is $104/year. In 30 years not counting interest that would be $3120. $104 is about 1/2 of what some live on in one year in some other countries. Are you willing to waste that amount of money which would help someone else to live much better or live at all?

 

[Jon-Marc]

How much living is anyone going to do on the $2 per week that I spend on the lotto? Also, it takes me about a minute to buy my lotto tickets; I rarely have to wait in a line. What worthwhile thing can I do with that minute? Yes, I know, you'll say pray or witness to someone. Being retired I have nothing but time, and due to many health problems I am constantly sick and in pain. All I really feel like doing is sleep; when I'm asleep I don't hurt.