Pastor warns Christians not to play Mega Millions lotto

[preachinjesus]

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard. (Proverbs 21:13 KJV)

I give to the poor all the time. In fact just the other day I bought (not our church) dinner and filled up the gas tank of a needy couple that crossed my path. This has nothing to do with gambling.

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(John 13:34 KJV)

This has nothing to do with gambling. How is buying a lotto ticket not loving your neighbor? How is taking a select portion of money and hitting a blackjack table for fun not loving your neighbor?

Then we can go here;
Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
(Philippians 2:4 KJV)

So I'm supposed to watch your money for you?

Obviously that isn't what the verse says. But it also doesn't say a single thing about gambling. How is my buying a lotto ticket not watching out for someone else? That's not an actual argument for your point.

Again all of your passages are not referring to gambing. They are talking a host of other, important things, but not prohibiting gambling.

 

[thegospelgeek]

...And then, tossing in semantics, it would be said that the learning imparied person can't make this decision of right mind, and that the other person is taking advantage of him because of the impariment. Does your local Shell Gas Station take advantage of a person who guys a lotto ticket? Does that cashier look for a learning impaired person to try to scam a buck out of them for a ticket? Maybe, but I'm guessing not..

I feel that in most cases the answer is actually yes. They do take advantage of the poor who think they can become rich. They are impared in my opinion. just because we do not recongnize illiteracy as well as other imapirments as being oficially "handicapped".

For the record...I'm personally not a huge fan of gambling, because I think it's a very addictive things to take part in. A few times a year I play poker with my brother, a few of my cousins, and my grandpa's two brothers. We have a blast. We play penny poker. But I know just from playing that...that I probably shouldn't spend time in casino's..

Agreed and understand your stance. I also appericiate the tone of your argument.

On top of that, whether it's right or wrong, the social stigma to gambling isn't positive. As a Christian, I don't want my testimony damaged or hurt because I spend time at the casinos, etc. IMO, same thing applies to drinking. Those tend to be places that can hurt my testimony and possibly keep me from being able to bring someone to Christ.

agreed again

 

[preachinjesus]

Soory to continue but this is one of my passions;

jesus said that whatever we do to the least of these, we do to him. I certainly would not want to stand before him to hear that I took food out of Christ mouth, or close away from him, or willingly contributed to a system that caused him to become homeless.

Again, this is a terrible moralizing that actually doesn't do anything to support your point.

So do you go to movies? How about this, do you have cable in your house? Of all your resources do you live next to the poverty line but give away all the rest of our money to the poor? There is, by this logic, nothing we can do to "take food our of Christ['s] mouth" (a terrible analogy btw) in how we live. Have you filled up your gas tank today? I guess that take food out of Jesus' mouth too...

Hows about this, we get away from this ridiculous moralizing and get into a biblical theology.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Since you've provided a specific Scripture...

It doesn't speak about gambling.

You must infer and eisogete a gambling framework onto the text to get there.

This is speaking about seeking another's benefit. Looking at the larger context this is speaking about what we eat. Paul's point in the whole pericope (vss. 23-11:1) is about how Christians are free to eat whatever they choose so long as they are clear of conscience.

Again this has nothing to do with gambling.

You are narrowing the scope and principle of the scripture far beyond the intent of the passage.

 

[preachinjesus]

For those who are really intrested in knowing the difference between the Lottery/Gambling and stock, investments, and or raffles;

Gambling takes money from those who lose, there can be no winner without a loser. Plain and simple I win, you lose. You win, I lose.

Nope. This isn't true and is a terrible way to view things. See below...

Stocks and investments are not setup that way. I purchase a stock beleiving that the company will use my contribution to develop a successful product. People buy the product to meet a need. The company profits, I profit, and the consumer has their need met. No one loses. It does not always work out that way due to several contibuting factors, but the idea is not to take money from a loser and give to a winner.

Unless you bought stock from: Enron, Worldcomm, GM, etc

One of my friends was involved with a guy named Allen Stanford (not directly but through a secondary person) and invested $250,000 on the basis that this was a sound investment. He lost, he lost it all.

How is that not like gambling again?

A Raffle is general considered a contribution to raise funds for a charitable event. Most do not plan on winning, just making a donation to the charity. For example, I know a man who spent $200 on a $100 raffle for a childrens home. Of course he won and then donated the $100 winnings back to the home. Much different than the intenet of a Lottery.

Now you're just splitting hairs. So if I pledge away my lotto earnings to the poor, thus it becomes charity, I'm okay?

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

No, basketball.

Are you a fellow hoosier?

Hoosiers can have their basketball. I'll take my short track saturday night racing anyday of the week over that (and i enjoy basketball)

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

I feel that in most cases the answer is actually yes. They do take advantage of the poor who think they can become rich. They are impared in my opinion. just because we do not recongnize illiteracy as well as other imapirments as being oficially "handicapped".

I think God gave us the ability to make decisions on our own. With the exception of those who are physically/mentally impaired to the point they shouldn't be making their own decisions, just because one is poor, or uneducated doesn't mean they can't make a fully comprehendable decision.

Agreed and understand your stance. I also appericiate the tone of your argument.

thanks.

agreed again

:wavey:

 

[thegospelgeek]

I give to the poor all the time. In fact just the other day I bought (not our church) dinner and filled up the gas tank of a needy couple that crossed my path. This has nothing to do with gambling.

Yet the lottery, which you are defending takes from the poor everyday

This has nothing to do with gambling. How is buying a lotto ticket not loving your neighbor? How is taking a select portion of money and hitting a blackjack table for fun not loving your neighbor?

who provided the winnings. cetainly not the casino.

So I'm supposed to watch your money for you?

Obviously that isn't what the verse says. But it also doesn't say a single thing about gambling. How is my buying a lotto ticket not watching out for someone else? That's not an actual argument for your point.

Again all of your passages are not referring to gambing. They are talking a host of other, important things, but not prohibiting gambling.

Not watch it, but I don't think taking it is acceptable. You are correct, they do not say "Thou shall not gamble" but winning money from some poor drunk who can not feed his children does not exactly match the spirit of the passages I posted. I of course say "Well he shouldn't have wasted his money, not my fault his kids are hungry. If I hadn't won it someone else would have." But then again as a doctor I could say, "Not my fault she got pregnant, she shouldn't have been having unprotected sex, I see no verse that says "thou shall not commit abortion", If I don't perform it another doctor will".

 

[Jerome]

Y'all are aware that the first Baptist church in America (Providence) built its meeting house from the proceeds of a lottery (1774)?

Here is another early 'Baptist Meeting-House Lottery' ticket:

http://www.fosterpreservationsociety.org/images/Lottery Ticket.jpg

 

[preachinjesus]

There are principles.

--The Bible says much on the subject, just not in the same words that you would like it to. It does not say: "Thou shalt not buy a lottery ticket." It doesn't have to. It directs the issue in many other ways using many other principles. The principle of greed and covetousness are outstanding. This verse in particular is what stands out when one buys a lottery ticket:

Well Havensdad actually answered pretty much how I would so I won't recapitulate that reply. All that to say: you still haven't made a case biblically against gambling.

You've just quoted a bunch of verses, wrestled out of context, which teach that we should be mindful of our money, the poor, and how we care for each other. Okay, I give my tithe to the church, I happily assist ministries that help the poor, I provide resources for the poor, my fiscal house is in order, I've got the Dave Ramsey security fund secured (I'm good for 12 months if something goes wrong), and I minister to others in need.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a lotto ticket or heading to the blackjack table if I've squared away my priorities from a biblical position. I might even have a beer while at the table...

Prov.13:11 Wealth gained hastily will dwindle,
but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

I agree...so don't play the stock market, don't come up with the next massive invention, don't get an inheritance from your rich uncle, don't find a bag of cash on the sidewalk, don't cash in your 401k, don't do anything remotely adventurous or invest in anything.

Proverbs is a book of principles not promises...you can't distort its teaching to apply to your condition.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Are you a fellow hoosier?

Hoosiers can have their basketball. I'll take my short track saturday night racing anyday of the week over that (and i enjoy basketball)

OT yet another Hoosier here. I move to Ohio when I was 12

 

[preachinjesus]

What is QT?

Its a mega-gas station chain. Take it out and insert 7-11 or something.

There are times when property values go up when that happens. I am not sure you could name a store of that type as promoting those other things unless it has forms of gambing. If you want less crime you could move to WY, SD or ND. Where I live people leave tools in their pickups all the time.

I've never seen property values go up when a 7-11 gets installed or a gas station right down the road.

About the crime, hey you made the point. I'm just saying its a bad point.

 

[preachinjesus]

You are narrowing the scope and principle of the scripture far beyond the intent of the passage.

No I'm not. Go read the context and study it. You can't find gambling addressed.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Again, this is a terrible moralizing that actually doesn't do anything to support your point.

So do you go to movies? How about this, do you have cable in your house? Of all your resources do you live next to the poverty line but give away all the rest of our money to the poor? There is, by this logic, nothing we can do to "take food our of Christ['s] mouth" (a terrible analogy btw) in how we live. Have you filled up your gas tank today? I guess that take food out of Jesus' mouth too...

Hows about this, we get away from this ridiculous moralizing and get into a biblical theology.

Sorry you are missing my point. I am not taking the food out of his mouth by spending what I have. Nor am I doing so by the person buying the ticket. I am doing so by depriving his children of what they need because some poor slob chose to waste his money. I really don't see what is so difficult to understand. Do you have no compassion for the poor? Is there no Love of Christ for someone who makes poor decisions. Do I condem the drug addict, the prostitute and the homeless because they made poor decisions? I really don't understand the desire to gain at someone elses expense and then proclaim it as OK.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

OT yet another Hoosier here. I move to Ohio when I was 12

You poor soul :laugh:

I did my time. Spent 4 years in Ohio, couldn't wait to leave. :tonofbricks:

But I am a lifelong Bengals and Reds fan.

 

[preachinjesus]

who provided the winnings. cetainly not the casino.

I don't understand your point.

Not watch it, but I don't think taking it is acceptable. You are correct, they do not say "Thou shall not gamble" but winning money from some poor drunk who can not feed his children does not exactly match the spirit of the passages I posted. I of course say "Well he shouldn't have wasted his money, not my fault his kids are hungry. If I hadn't won it someone else would have." But then again as a doctor I could say, "Not my fault she got pregnant, she shouldn't have been having unprotected sex, I see no verse that says "thou shall not commit abortion", If I don't perform it another doctor will".

So go back to my question. At what point does moralizing our money get out of hand?

Do you have cable? Do you go out to eat in restaurants? Do you fill up your car with gas? Do you use heat in the winter and A/C in the summer?

All of those things could realistically take funds away from providing for the poor or an needy group.

 

[thegospelgeek]

No I'm not. Go read the context and study it. You can't find gambling addressed.

Went back and read it just to make sure I was not incorrect. If I understand you correctly (I'm probably wrong) you are saying that this applies only to what we eat?

That is way to narrow of a scope. The context of what we eat is the specific in this passage but the principle of our responsibility to seek the benifit of others is the principle. This is exactlly why I am opposed to gambling. I can only win if you lose.

We can make a business deal where we both win. Would I enter into a deal where I try to take advantage of you? Would I knowingly try to sell you a car with a blown engine? If I did, would you sya, "well I guess I should have been more careful, that salesman was a great Christian witness."

 

[preachinjesus]

Sorry you are missing my point. I am not taking the food out of his mouth by spending what I have. Nor am I doing so by the person buying the ticket. I am doing so by depriving his children of what they need because some poor slob chose to waste his money. I really don't see what is so difficult to understand.

I understand what you're saying but we can say this about a host of issues. Gambling is just one issue. My point is that when we apply a extra-biblical standard onto an issue like gambling and force the Scriptural text to make a statement it actually says nothing about we are causing injury to the Bible.

There are millions upon millions of people who handle themselves appropriately and take care of their fiscal houses well who play the lotto. My underlying point is that it is erroneous to say the Bible teaches against gambling. As this thread and the others before prove...it does not.

Do you have no compassion for the poor? Is there no Love of Christ for someone who makes poor decisions. Do I condem the drug addict, the prostitute and the homeless because they made poor decisions? I really don't understand the desire to gain at someone elses expense and then proclaim it as OK.

What is the measure for poor decisions? Is it some imputed moralism that appropriates the Bible as a guard when the Bible is actually silent on some matters? This diversion of "gain at someone elses expense" is erroneous and a red herring. No one loses when I go and guy a lotto ticket.

As well the point about gambling in the lotto being no different the stock market holds. If you don't think it does let me kindly introduce you to the thousands and thousands recently defrauded by companies who gamble publicly with their money every day on the stock market.

 

[preachinjesus]

Again, we're at 16 pages on this and my point is proven:

No one has cited any Bible passage or verse which clearly and specifically prohibits gambling

No one has gotten around to seriously dealing with how playing the lotto is different than casting lots for leadership and decisions in the OT and NT.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I don't understand your point.

point= only money won comes from someone else losing

So go back to my question. At what point does moralizing our money get out of hand?

Do you have cable? Do you go out to eat in restaurants? Do you fill up your car with gas? Do you use heat in the winter and A/C in the summer?

All of those things could realistically take funds away from providing for the poor or an needy group.

Money spent in each of these examples is an equall exchange for a service. I provide money to the restraunt, waiter/waitress, cable company, etc for their service. That money is paid in wages/tips for services rendered. I get what I needed/wanted, those providing the service get what they wanted.

You and I gamble on a coin toss. I win. I get your money. I'm happy. You are not. $1 wager, no big deal. No one's life gets changed. Now, I go and spend $75 week on the coin toss. I have to correctly call 100 coin tosses in a row before I can win. I am spending $300 month. You are winning. My child goes hungry, my wife leaves me. Do you say, "Well Keith's an idiot. He shouldn't have lost his money." Is that is too difficult a concept to understand?