Pastoral Qualification Quandary ??

[canadyjd]

From some of the vitriol on this Forum I wonder how many of those who are pastors are "above reproach".

I have no way of knowing all who are pastors but some are self identified.

I agree, but that is not the question.

The question of the OP concerns a specific situation that is clearly addressed in scripture. The pastor is disqualified and should resign, according to scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

I agree, but that is not the question.

The question of the OP concerns a specific situation that is clearly addressed in scripture. The pastor is disqualified and should resign, according to scripture.

peace to youraying:

Then please quote the Scripture. I am unable to find it in my old KJV.

 

[canadyjd]

There is one qualification. Is the person called of God to serve.....period?

Scripture disagrees with you....period.

This is the same argument used by women who wish to pastor... that God has called them and who are we to stand in their way.

The answer is that we do not stand in their way, the Word of God stands in their way. They can only assume their duties as a pastor in violation of God's Word. That is not a good way to start your service to God.

God gave several qualifications for His chosen vessels. He would not call someone to pastor contrary to His Word.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Then please quote the Scripture. I am unable to find it in my old KJV.

It is not noble to pretend ignorance.

We have been speaking of the I Tim. 3 passage. You can accept it or reject it, but it clearly indicates the man is disqualified by divorce. He is not managing his household well and is not "above reproach".

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

It is not noble to pretend ignorance.

We have been speaking of the I Tim. 3 passage. You can accept it or reject it, but it clearly indicates the man is disqualified by divorce. He is not managing his household well and is not "above reproach".

peace to youraying:

I wasn't pretending ignorance. It is not noble to use bias in the interpretion of Scripture. The passage you quote does not disqualify a divorced person from serving as pastor. You eisegesis, as all eisegesis is faulty. If that is the best you can do then you are totally wrong.

Using your eisegesis ever pastor who did not have a perfect family would have to leave the ministry. As I recall The "man after God's own heart" did not manage his household well.

 

[canadyjd]

I wasn't pretending ignorance. It is not noble to use bias in the interpretion of Scripture. The passage you quote does not disqualify a divorced person from serving as pastor. You eisegesis, as all eisegesis is faulty. If that is the best you can do then you are totally wrong.

To charge eisegesis, but not address the passage to explain how it is eisegesis is, well, not very convincing.

Please explain how the qualification to "manage his household well" is not violated by going through a divorce? Please explain how such a divorce, which scripture clearly says "God hates", does not violate the qualification to be "above reproach".

It is not eisegesis. It is common sense and clear discernment.

What you call for is to ignore scripture in favor of man's wisdom. That is unwise and dangerous.

Using your eisegesis ever pastor who did not have a perfect family would have to leave the ministry.

What you are saying is simply not true. God doesn't require a "perfect family", but for the pastor to be "above reproach".

A divorce brings reproach to the name of Christ because "God hates" divorce. How can God's messenger engage publicly in something that God hates and remain "above reproach"? The truth is that He cannot.

You can only ignore that truth, and ignore scripture, if you are not convinced that God's Word should be followed by the people who are preaching it.

If this pastor stepped down, reconciled with his wife, and then returned to ministry, I would applaud him for his faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His Word.

Then, he would have been in a position of minister to families facing similar situations in a biblical manner and in God's authority.

Otherwise, the best he can do is say, "don't let scripture stop you from doing what you want to do."

peace to youraying:

 

[Jim1999]

Phoebe was called of God and approved by Paul, she was a deaconess and ministered the word! Wait she was a woman and women are not to have authority over men. I forgot that!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[canadyjd]

Phoebe was called of God and approved by Paul, she was a deaconess and ministered the word!

Please show me the passage of scripture that says Phoebe was a "minister of the Word"?

Romans 16:1 identifies Phoebe as "a servant (deacon) of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Phoebe was not a pastor, she was a deacon...probably the letter carrier of Paul to the Romans.

I don't believe deacons were ever meant to have authority in the church, they were servants. Therefore, I don't see any reason that women cannot be recognized for what they have been throughout the history of the church...faithful servants of Jesus Christ and His church.

That doesn't change the qualifications for the pastor/elder, which clearly has authority in the church and is limited to men.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

Please explain how the qualification to "manage his household well" is not violated by going through a divorce? Please explain how such a divorce, which scripture clearly says "God hates", does not violate the qualification to be "above reproach".

The phrase "manage his household well" is defined by the phrase that follows " having his children in subjection with all gravity" and there is no indication that it is intended to reach beyond that. Above reproach never refers to past an repented sin.No one must walk with a big "D" on their chest. All though someone who thinks divorce is acceptable would be very problematic. And there are some men out there who were divorced long before turning their lives over to the Lord.

 

[canadyjd]

The phrase "manage his household well" is defined by the phrase that follows " having his children in subjection with all gravity" and there is no indication that it is intended to reach beyond that.

I disagree. If you look at the similar phrase in the qualifications of deacons,(v.12) it says "good managers of their children and their own households."

Though good managers of their children is part of managing their household well, it is clear from v.12 that is not the full extent of the qualification to manage the household well.

Above reproach never refers to past an repented sin.No one must walk with a big "D" on their chest.

"Above reproach" means not having a credible charge made against you. People are going to make accusations against God's people, but they are to be blameless, especially the pastor.

The OP talked of a pastor going through a divorce while being a pastor and remaining afterward.

Going through a divorce allows for a credible charge/accusation to made against the pastor. They are not living up to God's Word. They are engaging in something that God hates. They are not "above reproach". They are not "managing their households well".

And there are some men out there who were divorced long before turning their lives over to the Lord.

I think you and I will agree here.

I don't believe a divorce prior to salvation disqualifies a man from the pastorate. If you hold that one of the qualifications apply prior to salvation, then they must all apply prior to salvation and no man would be qualified.

peace to youraying:

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree. If you look at the similar phrase in the qualifications of deacons,(v.12) it says "good managers of their children and their own households."

Simply a redundant phrase as is the habit of Paul in all his writings.

"Above reproach" means not having a credible charge made against you. People are going to make accusations against God's people, but they are to be blameless, especially the pastor.

Past and repented sin should never be held against anyone. "above reproach means not currently guilty of anything.

The OP talked of a pastor going through a divorce while being a pastor and remaining afterward.

That could be problematic depending on thee situation.

Going through a divorce allows for a credible charge/accusation to made against the pastor. They are not living up to God's Word. They are engaging in something that God hates. They are not "above reproach". They are not "managing their households well".I think you and I will agree here.

If they are at fault yes, but they are not always responsible and some can do everything right and still go through such circumstances.

I don't believe a divorce prior to salvation disqualifies a man from the pastorate. If you hold that one of the qualifications apply prior to salvation, then they must all apply prior to salvation and no man would be qualified.

peace to youraying:

agreed

 

[EdSutton]

Greetings, I saw when I loged in that I had not been here for almost 2 years, but this thread got me interested, having read and re read the 7 pages of posts. let me add my 2 cents, which will likely only add more questions. I have some personal experience as my first pastor was divorced while I was a member of his church and I have watched him remarry move to another town, start another church and struggle for the last 10 years. I have also watched the church he pastored while going through his divorce struggle as well. Over the years I have pondered this situation long and hard and looked at all sides of the issue. I can't say that my mind is completly made up on things as I write this but I would like to offer up a few thoughts:

My first thought has to do with the I Timothy 3 qualifications. I have seen many people do the same thing that people on here have done, when they have said Bishop=Senior Pastor. When we draw this conclusion we then say the man can't serve as senior pastor but he can serve as...(some other staff position other than senior pastor) I tend to believe that this may indeed be a slippery slope. let me explain.

The Book of Philippians is widely accepted as being addressed to The Church at Philippi:

"THE Epistle to the Philippians is a friendly letter of encouragement
and exhortation addressed to a church which was in a prosperous
and happy condition. " Abbott New Testament Comentary

"SUMMARY OF PHILIPPIANS 1: Greetings to the Church and Its
Officers." Peoples New Testament commentary

Philippians 1:1 states the following "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of
Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

So Paul's letter to the church at Philippi is addressed to the Bishops (as in more than one) of that church. I am then forced to conclude that our pratice of equating the office of bishop with that of senior pastor has to be a mistake.

I am going to post this and work on my other thought.

Yep! Paul certainly was rude when he ignored the most important member of the Phillipian church, namely the "Senior Pastor", wasn't he?

Ed

 

[gb93433]

I have a friend from my seminary days whose wife has a rather interesting story. Her husband was pastoring a church before he came to seminary and his wife came to Christ as a result of one of his sermons. She realized foir the first time that she ws not a believer. He baptized her.

 

[OldRegular]

canadyjd

I assume you are married but your posts exhibit almost a complete ignorance of women.

If a woman, or a man for that matter, is determined to get a divorce there is nothing the other party can do about it. It is that simple and may have nothing to do with the other party's behavior.

 

[EdSutton]

There is one qualification. Is the person called of God to serve.....period?

Can you tell us where God said this?

I'd really like to know this answer, too, considering I have been waiting to find out where this "call" is ever said in Scripture, since post #20.

Ed

 

[canadyjd]

Simply a redundant phrase as is the habit of Paul in all his writings.

Agreed. And the redundant phrase demonstrates Paul's intention of "managing his household well" included managing his children well, but was not limited to just managing his children.

Past and repented sin should never be held against anyone. "above reproach means not currently guilty of anything.

But the pastor is "guilty" of something. He is guilty of not managing his household well. He is guilty of being involved in divorce, which God hates.

That could be problematic depending on thee situation.

Your equivocations are unwarranted. It is clearly a problem, no matter the situation.

If they are at fault yes, but they are not always responsible and some can do everything right and still go through such circumstances.

But this pastor (in the OP) did not do "everything right".

He did not step down from the pastorate and reconcile the matter with his wife.

peace to youraying:

 

[gb93433]

Past and repented sin should never be held against anyone. "above reproach means not currently guilty of anything.

Just because someone has a past sin and is repentant does not mean they do not struggle with that sin and are mature enough in a pastoral situation to not succumb to the temptation and bring judgment on the church, himself and his family. I respect a person who is humble enough to know when he is not ready or mature enough to handle certain situations.

 

[canadyjd]

canadyjd

I assume you are married but your posts exhibit almost a complete ignorance of women.

But I am not ignorant of scriptures, nor do I disregard some and replace them with wisdom of men.

If a woman, or a man for that matter, is determined to get a divorce there is nothing the other party can do about it. It is that simple and may have nothing to do with the other party's behavior.

God didn't give exceptions in I Tim. 3. He didn't say "manages his household well...unless his wife leaves him at no fault of his own."

God didn't say, "above reproach.... unless he divorces his wife (By the Way, God hates divorce) through no fault of his own."

I assume by your lack of willingness to engage scriptures that you know full well what they say.

I also assume by your personal attacks on me that you have no further argument worth listening to.

peace to youraying:

 

[EdSutton]

... There is no doubt that we need balance and adaptation of application, but we need to be rigidly biblical.

Which returns us to the actual question: You said the one qualification for a pastor was to be called of God to serve, Period.

Do you have Bible for that? Do you think the list in 1 Timothy is not a qualification? Or a qualification that is negotiable?

Unfortunately, let me just say that I have heard far more about someone's supposed 'calling' discussed, over the years, than the actual Biblical qualifications listed in Scriptures, specifically those in I Tim. 3 and Tit. 1, which many must seem to think are merely 'negotiable suggestions', apparently. :tear:

I do pray that has not been the case for most others of the BB, but I would still wonder. raying:

Ed

 

[Revmitchell]

Agreed. And the redundant phrase demonstrates Paul's intention of "managing his household well" included managing his children well, but was not limited to just managing his children.

The problem is that there is only one thing listed. when you try to go beyond that it calls into question why the one thing. Since Paul did not make that clear or create a larger list it places doubt on any expansion.

But the pastor is "guilty" of something. He is guilty of not managing his household well. He is guilty of being involved in divorce, which God hates. Your equivocations are unwarranted.

Guilt is not eternal and ends at repentance for Christ took on all guilt. Otherwise Christ never would have required that forgiveness be given every time is is asked of you.