Pastor's advice on Calvinism

[quantumfaith]

Back in the day before computers, there was a Bible concordance done by a man named Crudens. You other old timers will remember it: Young's for the young, Strong's for the strong and Crudens for the crude!

A nickname for Crudens was "Crudens the Corrector," because he thought it his duty to set everyone straight around him. But this turned out to be impossible, and throughout his life he was therefore in and out of mental institutions.

Evan, are you listening? You'll not only harm the church of Jesus Christ but your own self (and your wife) by trying to "correct" the church's doctrine.

Words of wisdom. :applause::applause:

 

[Greektim]

Evan... I don't envy your situation. When spouses are close theologically, but differ on certain issues conflicting w/ where they go to church... that just sucks. My parents are in a similar boat, more over style than doctrine. I wish there was a silver bullet to fix the problem. But prayer and patience is likely the best solution.

 

[Revmitchell]

Met with a pastor yesterday after service and he gave me some advice. First the church's position on the issue (which I already knew) and second although they do not attack Calvinists and accepted me as a member I should not mention it in conversation, or SS open discussion (as SS in our church is discussion based and not lecture oriented). Perhaps some have left the church because of me (he did not say) but I have noticed our SS class is not as big as before for whatever reason. He just gave me advice and I have a better idea.

I won't mention Calvinism or Reformed theology by name, I will just discuss its doctrines when appropriate and the various scriptures in its defense. In reality I am not preaching Calvinism I am preaching the Bible and if people reject it they reject the Bible. However as Mitchell said once if thats all I talk about I am a "Cage-Calvinist" which is a label to avoid. A model example would be WOTM. If WOTM holds to Calvinist theology (not sure) Comfort does a great job of not using it to cause division. While I admire brother Paul Washer (do not agree with everything he says) perhaps he may be causing division in the church because of his strong Calvinist views when division is not glorifying Christ. I don't know.

Looking for ideas as maybe 1/100 persons in this church or any Arminian church will actually take the time to read a book or hear a podcast and look up the many verses in defense of Reformed theology as most will reject it without question. I do not treat Arminian theology this way and personally read and own Chosen But Free. I can't be something I am not and I must stand for the truth in gentleness and respect. At the moment I am locked at the church and was forced into attending there or else I would be at a Calvinist church. So I need to make the best of where I am at.

By the way folks this is just another example of Calvinists who sneak into churches with the goal of making it a Calvinist church. And it is evil.

 

[go2church]

Agree with Rev, if you where doing this in the church I pastor, I would ask you to leave, politely the first time, not so much the second.

 

[evangelist6589]

I have agreed with elements of what several posters have said here --even winman's.



Evan, I think it's time for you to do a whole lot of listening instead of talking and correcting. I don't think it's right for a husband and wife to go to separate churches. You agreed early in your marriage that you would go to the church you are with. Don't make waves. You are where you are and you can learn from it. A few years from now your wife may gain some biblical understanding that she doesn't have now. But this is the time to be willing to learn from your non-Calvinistic brothers and sisters.



You've heard the expression that you have two ears and one mouth. Put it in practice. As much as you think you can instruct others --this may be a valuable lesson in the wisdom of learning from others.



I think you are closer to 40 years of age than 30...am I right? You should have learned some life lessons about these kind of situations early on.



But please refrain from gossiping about your wife --it's just not right. Others don't do it --you should not bring her up in the ways you have on this and other discussion boards.

Which I why I agree not to mention Calvinism or Reformed by name again.

 

[kyredneck]

By the way folks this is just another example of Calvinists who sneak into churches with the goal of making it a Calvinist church. And it is evil.

You whine about Calvinists almost as much as Winman.

 

[evangelist6589]

By the way folks this is just another example of Calvinists who sneak into churches with the goal of making it a Calvinist church. And it is evil.

I have no goal to make it a Calvinist church however when my opinion is asked I will use Reformed theology.

SS is my opinion plain and simple.

 

[evangelist6589]

Agree with Rev, if you where doing this in the church I pastor, I would ask you to leave, politely the first time, not so much the second.

No one can ask me to leave any church without a clear case of division and all I do is use my POV in SS like everyone else. I am not passing out flyers, Calvinist books or the like.

LOOK I HAVE LEARNED FROM MY PAST MISTAKES!!!

IN 2010 I went to an Arminian church passed out books they did not agree with and caused other division. I learned the error of my ways and after they talked to me I hit the road.

 

[evangelist6589]

Evan... I don't envy your situation. When spouses are close theologically, but differ on certain issues conflicting w/ where they go to church... that just sucks. My parents are in a similar boat, more over style than doctrine. I wish there was a silver bullet to fix the problem. But prayer and patience is likely the best solution.

Thank you brother for your kindness.

All I do is express my POV in SS and fellowship meals just like everyone else. Yes my POV is Reformed so I agreed not to use the word Reformed again. But my POV is Reformed.

I will not cause division like I did in an Arminian church 4 years ago. I have learned from my mistakes. Then I passed out books and was on a crusade to change the pastoral staff to Calvinism and it did not work. I hit the road after they had a chat with me. I was STUPID!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Met with a pastor yesterday after service and he gave me some advice. First the church's position on the issue (which I already knew) and second although they do not attack Calvinists and accepted me as a member I should not mention it in conversation, or SS open discussion (as SS in our church is discussion based and not lecture oriented). Perhaps some have left the church because of me (he did not say) but I have noticed our SS class is not as big as before for whatever reason. He just gave me advice and I have a better idea.

I won't mention Calvinism or Reformed theology by name, I will just discuss its doctrines when appropriate and the various scriptures in its defense. In reality I am not preaching Calvinism I am preaching the Bible and if people reject it they reject the Bible. However as Mitchell said once if thats all I talk about I am a "Cage-Calvinist" which is a label to avoid. A model example would be WOTM. If WOTM holds to Calvinist theology (not sure) Comfort does a great job of not using it to cause division. While I admire brother Paul Washer (do not agree with everything he says) perhaps he may be causing division in the church because of his strong Calvinist views when division is not glorifying Christ. I don't know.

Looking for ideas as maybe 1/100 persons in this church or any Arminian church will actually take the time to read a book or hear a podcast and look up the many verses in defense of Reformed theology as most will reject it without question. I do not treat Arminian theology this way and personally read and own Chosen But Free. I can't be something I am not and I must stand for the truth in gentleness and respect. At the moment I am locked at the church and was forced into attending there or else I would be at a Calvinist church. So I need to make the best of where I am at.

Much as it pains me to defend the Arminians, if you feel you have to surreptitiously introduce Reformed theology, at the risk of causing division, you need to leave, for the sake of the harmony of that church and go find another church.

As much as I disagree with Arminian theology, and as big jerks as the ones here are, Arminianism is still well within the bounds of orthodoxy. While you may think you're helping, all you're going to do is introduce division in the church. What's more, by joining the church, you made an agreement to honor, if not agree, with their doctrine. For you to try to go around that is a sin and you need to stop.

 

[evangelist6589]

Much as it pains me to defend the Arminians, if you feel you have to surreptitiously introduce Reformed theology, at the risk of causing division, you need to leave, for the sake of the harmony of that church and go find another church.



As much as I disagree with Arminian theology, and as big jerks as the ones here are, Arminianism is still well within the bounds of orthodoxy. While you may think you're helping, all you're going to do is introduce division in the church. What's more, by joining the church, you made an agreement to honor, if not agree, with their doctrine. For you to try to go around that is a sin and you need to stop.

Perhaps this may be the solution.

 

[salzer mtn]

Evan maybe you and I should write Dear Abbey about our problems. :flower:

 

[go2church]

No one can ask me to leave any church without a clear case of division and all I do is use my POV in SS like everyone else. I am not passing out flyers, Calvinist books or the like.

LOOK I HAVE LEARNED FROM MY PAST MISTAKES!!!

IN 2010 I went to an Arminian church passed out books they did not agree with and caused other division. I learned the error of my ways and after they talked to me I hit the road.

Why, why, why? This is such misguided thinking. It's a slap in the face to the church, your wife and to overall unity of the church, which Jesus prayed literally prayed for among his followers. When you join a church you agree to certain parameters, if you can't abide by these parameters, then you need to leave.

And yes, Toto, I can ask you to leave. If you choose not to leave willingly, we will initiate removing you from the church membership. That you don't see what you're doing as division and harmful, says something about your maturity as a believer.

 

[abcgrad94]

The Bible doesn't say "the brethren", in verse 19.
You add to the Word, to try to make a wise saying equal doctrinal disagreement in the NT Church.

This verse is referring to the purposeful attempt to divide up a family, who share inherited lands.
Sowing discord, means just that.

I'm not trying to add to the word of God at all! I've never heard your particular interpretation of that passage in my life, not even while in Bible college. Not saying you're wrong, but I've always heard that taught as division within the brethren of Christ, not as division of lands. Where did you find that? I'd like to look at it closer to see for myself. Thanks.

Regardless, Evangelist IS causing division in his church and that is wrong.

 

[abcgrad94]

And yes, Toto, I can ask you to leave. If you choose not to leave willingly, we will initiate removing you from the church membership. That you don't see what you're doing as division and harmful, says something about your maturity as a believer.

I don't think he actually "joined" as a member in the first place, did he?

 

[evangelist6589]

Why, why, why? This is such misguided thinking. It's a slap in the face to the church, your wife and to overall unity of the church, which Jesus prayed literally prayed for among his followers. When you join a church you agree to certain parameters, if you can't abide by these parameters, then you need to leave.



And yes, Toto, I can ask you to leave. If you choose not to leave willingly, we will initiate removing you from the church membership. That you don't see what you're doing as division and harmful, says something about your maturity as a believer.

I think even WinMan has more sense than you! I am not afraid of Armianism as you do Calvinism. A old pastor of mine from the past welcomed diversity in the church and was not afraid of opposing views. Yes he allowed Arminian in the church.

 

[abcgrad94]

A old pastor of mine from the past welcomed diversity in the church and was not afraid of opposing views. Yes he allowed Arminian in the church.

But THIS pastor of your current church has made himself clear about the situation. You would be wise to follow his instruction or find another church.

 

[Winman]

I'm not trying to add to the word of God at all! I've never heard your particular interpretation of that passage in my life, not even while in Bible college. Not saying you're wrong, but I've always heard that taught as division within the brethren of Christ, not as division of lands. Where did you find that? I'd like to look at it closer to see for myself. Thanks.

Regardless, Evangelist IS causing division in his church and that is wrong.

I agree with your interpretation of Proverbs 6:19, not that my opinion means anything. The NT also says to mark those who cause division in the church.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Evan may disagree with the doctrine of his church, but they are agreed and he is causing division contrary to their doctrine and should be avoided.

 

[Winman]

Thank you brother for your kindness.

All I do is express my POV in SS and fellowship meals just like everyone else. Yes my POV is Reformed so I agreed not to use the word Reformed again. But my POV is Reformed.

I will not cause division like I did in an Arminian church 4 years ago. I have learned from my mistakes. Then I passed out books and was on a crusade to change the pastoral staff to Calvinism and it did not work. I hit the road after they had a chat with me. I was STUPID!

John, you are still doing the same thing. Didn't you give your pastor a book by Paul Washer if I am not mistaken?

You need to go to that Reformed church, you will be much happier there, and so will your current church.

 

[evangelist6589]

John, you are still doing the same thing. Didn't you give your pastor a book by Paul Washer if I am not mistaken?



You need to go to that Reformed church, you will be much happier there, and so will your current church.

Yes and he never mentioned it or read if I bet. I think I will just focus on the essentials of the faith.