Paul Proctor on Purpose-Driven

[Dr. Bob]

Haters thrive, destroying good. The Vandals, Visigoths and Huns are their heroes.

It is harder to build than to destroy.

I do not agree with all of the Saddleback mentality. PDL is like 1st grade christianity. But when my wife's mother (ifb since 1957 and super active in church, ss, awana, etc) read it, she was talking EVERY DAY about things she'd never learned.

Oh, she heard about the evils of rock music, long hair, and women wearing britches, but missed a lot of the Christianity 101 that PDL gives.

Wish I could talk some haters into visiting with the millions upon millions of weak, baby Christians like her who have been abused or neglected in our churches . . but to whom the simple truths of PDL are making a difference.

Or maybe talk to her grandson (my son) who is General Director of PDYM - purpose driven youth ministries at Saddleback . . .

 

[AVL1984]

I have heard great things about the PDL from friends who are in the ministry. I personally haven't been where they have used the materials, but, have seen great differences in approaches and Christian growth in the people who do use it! I also know that if the IFB is attacking it as "heretical" or "shallow" it has to be good and usable material as they are often wrong in their assessment of anything outside of their petty little world.

 

[gopchad]

Here is a link that should be of interest to some. I have posted it elsewhere as well. The site is worth going to even if you like PDL.

Chad

http://www.sacredsandwich.com/warren_scripture.htm

 

[guitarpreacher]

Typical hater stuff there. For example, making the leap of logic that using the Living Bible where it says "new ideas" as opposed to the kjv saying "knowledge" means that PDL supports being open to homosexual pastors. The writer can't be that dumb, so I have to assume he is being intellectually dishonest (liar) in order to push his preconceived ideas and agenda. That's worse than being dumb.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I have heard a lot good and bad about Rick Warren and PDL, but the simple truth is that there is only one way to be able to judge. You need to read it. I am not willing to take Procter or anyone else's word for it. What does the book say?

I bought my copy yesterday. You can be sure that I will go through it with my Bible open. I will check every verse, translation, and context he uses. Then I can give an informed opinion when some church member comes asking about it.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Haters thrive, destroying good. The Vandals, Visigoths and Huns are their heroes.

It is harder to build than to destroy.

I do not agree with all of the Saddleback mentality. PDL is like 1st grade christianity. But when my wife's mother (ifb since 1957 and super active in church, ss, awana, etc) read it, she was talking EVERY DAY about things she'd never learned.

Oh, she heard about the evils of rock music, long hair, and women wearing britches, but missed a lot of the Christianity 101 that PDL gives.

Wish I could talk some haters into visiting with the millions upon millions of weak, baby Christians like her who have been abused or neglected in our churches . . but to whom the simple truths of PDL are making a difference.

Or maybe talk to her grandson (my son) who is General Director of PDYM - purpose driven youth ministries at Saddleback . . .

Dr. Bob,

I'm sorry, but I can't acquiesce to your assertion that PDL is 1st grade Christianity. That would be true IF Warren were true to the scriptures and consistent in his interpration of them. Ultimately, his book is more "me-centered" (regardless of the book's first sentence) than "God-centered". It is not a healthy book and I would have too many reservations to recommend it to anyone.

As an example, this book completely downplays God's wrath on sinners and emphasizes His love to the exclusion of wrath.

Consider this:

If a book sells 20+ million copies then many, many non-Christians are buying it and "enjoying" it. We know this is true because Warren has boasted of how other faiths and even Catholics are reading it. If his book contained the full Gospel, then it would offend many more than it is offending. A simple review of the Acts and epistles would bear this out. What is "missing" in PDL that is allowing so many unregenerate people to embrace it? I think the gospel itself is missing.

Brian

 

[guitarpreacher]

Originally posted by bjonson:
As an example, this book completely downplays God's wrath on sinners and emphasizes His love to the exclusion of wrath.

Brian [/QB]

Hmmm... maybe because it's a book about finding the purpose for your life and not about the wrath of God.

I have this discussion often with other pastors about not focusing on hell or God's wrath enough. I don't know what kind of people you are reaching, and depending on where you are it may be necessary to spend a lot of time on hell and judgment in order to lead people to Christ. However, the people that my church is reaching don't have to hear all that much about hell because they're living right in the middle of it. It's exactly what their lives have become. What they need to hear is the fact that there is hope, that God can and does still love them, He's not mad at them and he want's them to know that he died for them so that they can have life. My friend, that's the Gospel, not how terrible God's wrath is but how awesome and far reacdhing his love is.

 

[Journeyman1]

Ivy League,

He's pushing his own views, its the truth that sets us free.

jman

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by guitarpreacher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bjonson:
As an example, this book completely downplays God's wrath on sinners and emphasizes His love to the exclusion of wrath.

Brian

Hmmm... maybe because it's a book about finding the purpose for your life and not about the wrath of God.

I have this discussion often with other pastors about not focusing on hell or God's wrath enough. I don't know what kind of people you are reaching, and depending on where you are it may be necessary to spend a lot of time on hell and judgment in order to lead people to Christ. However, the people that my church is reaching don't have to hear all that much about hell because they're living right in the middle of it. It's exactly what their lives have become. What they need to hear is the fact that there is hope, that God can and does still love them, He's not mad at them and he want's them to know that he died for them so that they can have life. My friend, that's the Gospel, not how terrible God's wrath is but how awesome and far reacdhing his love is. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Your people are living right in the middle of "hell" right now? They don't need to hear about the hell reserved for the devil and his angels?

Hmmm....

This is the exact problem I was trying to address; evangelicals today don't seem to see the need to point out to sinners that they are the enemies of God and are bound for an eternal hell unless they repent and turn to Christ.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Agree that Warren preaches a more "positive" slant on the Gospel than I, as a calvinist, would like. He will answer to his Master for that, not to Bob. I would certainly have written some of it differently (and NEVER used paraphrases; I'da translated each verse MYSELF from the Greek and used the GET Real Version) but you know, Rick didn't ask me.

But "because 20+ million copies" have been sold it MUST be "bad" is truly scarey reasoning skills. I've got an opening in logic class . .

 

[guitarpreacher]

bjonson,

Like I said, maybe the people you are trying to reach need help in understanding hell and punishment. Our church is made up primarily of recovering drug addicts and that is the group we have the biggest impact with. It is a waste of breath to talk to them about a future hell when their life is a literal hell right here on earth. Don't know if you've dealt much with meth addicts, but it doesn't take long before their life is in shambles. Their families are ruined, their health fails, their finances are destroyed, and then satan heaps guilt on top of all that to the point they think there is no hope. You can talk to them all day long about hell and how they're going to face the wrath of God and all you'll get is a blank stare. They can't imagine that it could be any worse than what it already is. Again, what they need is hope, not more condemnation.

You and I know that eternal hell seperated from God is worse than anything they could experience here on earth, but when it's all said and done, that is useless knowledge unless you offer the hope of Christ.

And when you read my statement, don't assume that we don't talk about hell and punishment as a matter of discipleship. As we work our way through God's Word, when it comes up we present it as very real. It's just not necessary to have an in depth understanding of hell in order realize you need a savior.

 

[av1611jim]

guitar;
I don't know what you are talking about. As a former meth addict myself (eight ball a day) I can tell you that your blanket use of the word "all" presupposes that they are stupid and have no imagination left. From personal experience, I can tell you that a meth addict can imagine worse things if he is presented with a balanced view of the wrath of God and His Holiness.

Your statement that it is not "necessary to have an indepth understanding of hell in order to realize you are a sinner in need of Christ" is true to a certain degree, but it is not as all encompassing as it appears you are saying. One must remember that it was none other than Christ Himself who preached the MOST about hell. And He was very graphic.

My ministry is prison preaching, and I can tell you that preaching hell is very effective. It should not be your exclusive focus, of course, but neither should it be relegated to the incidentals, as you seem to imply. Again, a proper balance is needed. Do not neglect hell fire preaching, but while doing it you must also offer the hope that Jesus included when He preached about hell.

Hell and punishment talk during discipleship may be nice, but by then I would assume you are discipling believers? Remember Edwards' sermon and its effectiveness?

Anyway...I am rambling now. I DO encourage you brother. Thank God (literally) for your work among the undesirables. Keep it up. It is worth it.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by bjonson:



I'm sorry, but I can't acquiesce to your assertion that PDL is 1st grade Christianity. That would be true IF Warren were true to the scriptures and consistent in his interpration of them. Ultimately, his book is more "me-centered" (regardless of the book's first sentence) than "God-centered".

As an example, this book completely downplays God's wrath on sinners and emphasizes His love to the exclusion of wrath.

Consider this:

If a book sells 20+ million copies then many, many non-Christians are buying it and "enjoying" it. We know this is true because Warren has boasted of how other faiths and even Catholics are reading it. If his book contained the full Gospel, then it would offend many more than it is offending. A simple review of the Acts and epistles would bear this out. What is "missing" in PDL that is allowing so many unregenerate people to embrace it? I think the gospel itself is missing.

Brian

The very vast majority of Christians do not share their faith and a small percentage of those who do, don't have a clue on how to make disciples.

Sometime ask some of the deacons in your church to define salvation. Most will miss the mark radically. Most know nothing of the temporal aspect of salvation. Ask the deacons in your church about the last time they shared their faith and what they said. The first time I did that it was quite an eye-opener. I think most pastors assume too much when it comes to thinking the people in their church are knowledgable and sharing their faith.

On one ocassion there was a man visiting the church I was pastoring and he mentioned to me about how weak most churches were in Bible Study and sermons. I invited him to a Bible study I was leading. That week we were studying Isaiah. The people in the study were to have read Isaiah and have the questions answered. He came and was overwhelmed. He never returned. His criticism was not valid and he was a whimp when it came to sharing his faith. I asked him to go with me knocking on doors. He backed out. The criticism backfired in his lap. Not all churches are what they seem coming just from the pulpit.

Saddleback has started something like 40 churches and has a theological school for those who want more. How many of those folks who have perfect theology have even staretd one church?

 

[guitarpreacher]

Hey Jim, thanks for the encouragement. My point is that the reason for focusing on hell as part of evangelism is to convince someone of their need for a savior, or in other words, to convince them that they are lost. These folks already know that. They may not be able to express it in a textbook theologically proper manner, but in their heart they know they are in trouble. And forgive me for the blanket statements, I'm only speaking of my experience, not meaning to speak for everyone else. Certainly not implying that addicts are stupid, just that they (again, the ones we are getting) are at rock bottom. Most have at some point in their life (we are in the heart of the Bible belt) heard a pretty good dose of hell fire preaching, and it didn't reach them. What does reach them is the Good News that God loves them, Christ died for them, and they can have a relationship with Him.


Edwards' sermon worked great for Edwards, but that was a different time and a different culture. Same message, no doubt, but still a different time and place. And the history of Edwards that I have read, he was far from a "hell fire" preacher. He manuscripted his sermons and then read them from the pulpit in a rather monotone voice.

btw, Please let me know what I have to do to get to be one of God's favored children and serve an awesome place like Montana???

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Agree that Warren preaches a more "positive" slant on the Gospel than I, as a calvinist, would like. He will answer to his Master for that, not to Bob. I would certainly have written some of it differently (and NEVER used paraphrases; I'da translated each verse MYSELF from the Greek and used the GET Real Version) but you know, Rick didn't ask me.

But "because 20+ million copies" have been sold it MUST be "bad" is truly scarey reasoning skills. I've got an opening in logic class . .

Dr. Bob,

There is nothing wrong with my logic (I already took and passed that class). The gospel will offend because the preaching of the cross is offensive to most. Warren's book appeals to Jews, Mormons, Catholics, etc. and that shouldn't be the case.

 

[just-want-peace]

Warren's book appeals to Jews, Mormons, Catholics, etc. and that shouldn't be the case.

So are we now defining what's acceptable, not by it's content, but by who likes it?

Last time I looked in the mirror I didn't fit any of these categories.

I THINK I understand the point your trying to make, but a bit more elaboration is needed to clarify, OK?

Oh, just for the record, I strongly imagine that there are many J, M, C, etc that hate this book.

 

[bjonson]

My point is that pure doctrine will always divide and not bring many faiths together. Thank God for that. Warren's book is so "Dr. Phil"-like in its warm fuzzies that there isn't enough offense. That is my point.

 

[go2church]

Then go offend someone and quit crying about it.

 

[bjonson]

go2church,

You have a bad attitude. I am not "crying" about anything; I am simply trying to warn people that the Warren bandwagon is not a safe place to be.

 

[guitarpreacher]

bjonson,

Just out of curiosity I took a look at your church's website. Liberty Heights Church, judging from the website, is a Purpose Driven Church. If the principles laid out in PDC and PDL are so unsafe, why are you there? In reading your vision statement and seeing the terminology used to describe the ministries and ministers, it sure looks PD to me. So what's up bro?