PDL/PDC and Calvinism

My mentality is founded on Christ and the Bible. I would not be in a church that would even consider this because it is New Age garbage.

It is feeding on the ignorant with ear tickling, man centered, humanistic philosophy that appeals to the natural man. Why do you think so many people are flocking to it? Why do you think so many unbelievers are going to "seeker friendly" Church's? Because they don't feel loved and CONVICTED. Don't preach the COMMAND to repent, just a washed down, Jesus loves you, over and over and over again, while unconverted sinners go around with a false conversion, thinking they are fine without having to bow their knees and repent, and change from their sin. But they feel great sipping Lattes at the Church's seeker friendly coffee shop!

 

Just curious -- how many people have you recently led to Christ with this mentality that is so biblical and Christ-following?

If you are in a church with a similar approach, how faithful were you to fulfill the Great Commission last year? How many people were baptized?

Numbers are not everything, but they are definitely a sign. If your mentality is so Christ-like, I can't imagine you are not driven by the same "seek and save" approach that Jesus affirmed and commanded of his followers upon his departure. So give us the inside scoop. How often are you directly involved with another person's repentance and embrace of Christ as Lord and Savior?

Of course these can be regarded as rhetorical questions b/c I have yet to meet a person with your mentality that was able to show a life pattern of seeking and saving the lost. Maybe there is one out there. Maybe you are that one. If so, the questions should not be taken as rhetorical.

We will see ...

 

rc, my friend...I don't want to go to a church that never commands repentance...but I do want to hear that Jesus loves me too.

 

Oh, I know that I was NOT excluding the gospel and ANY of Jesus' love. There is no problem getting people saved. It's getting them LOST first thats the problem.

Nice judgment AAG. I go door to door EVERY Tuesday night in ghetto's of Mpls... My church sends out more missionaries than any other church in the whole midwest. It's NOT about love or wrath being taught... it is teaching ALL of it and HOW.

AND NO it's NOT about numbers... and IT IS NOT a sign... that's one of the man centered philosophies I'm talking about. I'm concerned about preaching God's word and His COMMANDS. REPENT! This was the gospel. This is the gospel that saved. This is the gospel that the natural man HATES.

Some of the greatest preachers in the Bible?...
Numbers are a sign huh?
Jeremiah preached for years to a WHOLE NATION! He spoke AS GOD! Not just a preacher... How many did he save? hmmm ..... ZERO.

How bout Ezekiel? ... ZERO...

God wants HIS message out. Man wants money in the wallet. Pragmatism is the plague of the last century and poor people are flocking to the Church's that use it.... tickle my ears! tickle my ears! Let's go see the DRAMA at the church! Entertain me, amuse me, give me a short, quant, love story to make me feel warm so I can feel good before I go to the bars tomorrow night, two for one you know.

 

Not judging. Simply speaking from experience.

In light of or in spite of your theology?

This is quite a statement. Which church could this be? Let's see ... you are from Minneapolis ... does the name of your church have to do with the birth place of Jesus? Have you paid the Piper?

When you consider the fact that numbers = souls, numbers matter a whole lot.

If it is not a sign, why include them in the Acts accounts?

It has nothing to do with man-centeredness and everything to do with PEOPLE.

Yes repentance is a part of the message.

I know you are not going to compare Jeremiah and Ezekiel with the Great Commission command of today. The Great Commission itself implies that disciples will be made (there we go with the numbers again), that people will be baptized (can't get away from those pesky numbers), and that people will be taught (can't teach what does not exist -- people).

Wow. Who have you been listening to? Sounds like one of those straw man terminators to me.

If you want to deal with facts, we can.

 

And you wonder why God calls us sheep. DUMB, LAZY. You go to a church for it's Drama night that talks about little Joey wanting to be reconciled with his mother by "Thinking positive" and "Dreaming" your purpose into existance with mommy loving you, and I'll stick to the good ol' gospel. Repent and Believe.

What Got Peter NUMBERS?
Acts 2:37-38 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


The conviction of sin which drives one to the Saviour. Where is the "Jesus loves you" whimper in the speach... oh yeah... there WASN'T one.

 

What are you talking about???

No one is promoting a gospel w/o faith and repentance. I realize it is easier to attack straw men than deal with reality, but give me a break.

So now numbers do matter? Will you make up your mind?

I would still like to know which church you attend that sends out more missionaries than any other church in the Midwest. Will you at least give us a hint?

 

rc,

I noticed on your profile that your home church is Bethlehem. Is it true that Bethlehem has never baptized over 40 people in a single year? I have heard that before. Is it true? I am not criticizing John Piper. I have read several of his books and appreciate what he has to say. I am just wondering how a church the size of Bethlehem in a place like Minneapolis baptizes less than 40 people a year. Legitimate question.

 

Read the Church's qualifications for baptism and you'll know why. It is a VERY serious thing and it is only done when the person properly understands the implications of the sacrement.

youth Baptism

 

Nice to see your church has it's own man made rules over what the Bible says. Wait until your at least 11 to begin the process? The Bible says to believe and be baptized. Never mentions an age. That sounds like a bunch of man made garbage.

 

3 observations:

1. I am not talking about baptizing kids. I am talking about the reality that a church of several thousand attendees baptizes fewer than 40 people (adults and/or kids) a year. Take all of the kids out of the equation. Do you think a church of your size baptizing fewer than 40 grown adults a year is truly Great Commission minded? Just wondering.

2. Since you do baptize less than 40 people a year, where do the people come from? Where do the thousands who attend Bethlehem come from? Could it be other Christians who are simply coming to Bethlehem to sponge? Is that Great Commission church growth? Does Bethlehem attract a large number of Christians who feel they are not being "fed" in other churches?

3. Regarding your baptism procedures (and actually I believe the policy discourages baptism prior to 18), why are you so adament in your previous posts concerning the nature of Peter's "repentance" preaching and yet you are extremely "flexible" in your interpretation of the same passage, which is clear that people came to Christ and then were immediately baptized? Isn't that a bit ironic?


Again, I have no qualms with Piper. I respect him a great deal. He challenges my thinking. I just wonder if the line gets blurred at times between a commitment to a theological system and a commitment to the Great Commission.

 

Do you think a church of your size baptizing fewer than 40 grown adults a year is truly Great Commission minded? Just wondering.

Numbers again don't matter. I'll take 40 seriously committed Christians over 1000 false converts anytime. Do you know that Billy Graham's crusades have a less than 2% of all of "Their" converts stay with Christ only after 2 years? ...

Since you do baptize less than 40 people a year, where do the people come from? Where do the thousands who attend Bethlehem come from? Could it be other Christians who are simply coming to Bethlehem to sponge? Is that Great Commission church growth? Does Bethlehem attract a large number of Christians who feel they are not being "fed" in other churches?

You assume much. First of all you are arguing against your own premise. There are HUGE amounts of CHRISTIANS that have come to Bethlehem... BECAUSE they ARE NOT being taught proper doctrine, BECAUSE of all the liberal GARBAGE that is being spewed, that is TRUE. BUT... they ARE Christians, they have ALREADY BEEN Baptized and do not need to be baptized again. Thus this greatly destroys you argument.

Regarding your baptism procedures (and actually I believe the policy discourages baptism prior to 18), why are you so adamant in your previous posts concerning the nature of Peter's "repentance" preaching and yet you are extremely "flexible" in your interpretation of the same passage, which is clear that people came to Christ and then were immediately baptized? Isn't that a bit ironic?


If Peter himself was here and had to DEAL with all the garbage that has poisoned the doctrines of grace, I'm sure he would be VERY cautious of whom he baptized for THEIR sake.

And questions of the "Great Commission" I would be very cautious before you make assumptions about a church's fulfilling of such. Do you know how many missionaries Bethlehem sends out? How many Seminaries we've started? Do you know four of the top five Church's that promote missions are Calvinistic (#1 D. James Kennedy)? Do you know the WHOLE reason for the Puritans to come to America was to evangelize the lost?

How easy it is to evangelize having the confidence that Christ has a mandate to save HIS SHEEP and you are the one to bring the Good News that God will use to save.

And how unnerving it would be thinking that you might go somewhere and never "convince" someone for Christ because no matter how convincing you are, your God is powerless to change a heart.

 

The church I attend has just won the PDC award for 2004. www.lakeridgechurch.com

We baptized 15 people yesterday, all "seriously committed" including an entire family -Praise God! We have roughly 150 people attending, up from 80 2 years ago. Lives are being changed, souls are being won for Christ, and the church is growing. I believe this is the purpose in our lives as believers Rick Warren is talking about.

 

Lame excuse in my opinion. The point is that a church the size of Bethlehem where people are seriously engaging others with the gospel of Jesus Christ should be seeing far more conversions and baptisms. Churches of far less size see far more "legitimate - seriously committed" Christians a year. No one is talking about "false converts".

Actually you prove my point very well. The essence of the Great Commission is not about attracting other believers. The GC is about making disciples, baptizing them. There is an assumption in the GC of unbelievers who are becoming believers. Even if you argue that church is not for unbelievers, the evidence of less than 40 a year out of thousands of Christians "going deeper" does not equal out. Knowledge that does not translate in the simplest form of obedience (Great Commission obedience) is not true discipleship. It is filling one's head with knowledge that does not even affect one's passion to share Christ.

Do you want to know why numbers are important? Because there are churches all over our land filled with believers who left their church and went to another b/c their church was not going "deep" enough and yet the churches they are filling rarely see unbelieving adults become genuine followers of Christ.

This is not about "false converts" or "shallow churches". This is about knowledge that generates obedience.

So in reality, you have proven my argument stronger than ever. Saying Bethlehem is filled with dissatisfied Christians simply proves my point.

Wow for someone who is so concerned about the text, you sure do employ a lot of liberty when discussing it.

Again you miss the point. I don't care how many missionaries you send out or seminaries you start. If you are not evangelizing your own community, these things are moot.

We are not talking about other churches or the Puritans (another typical abuse by hypers). We are talking about how the theology of Bethlehem, ie Piper and those who follow this type of theology, affects their evangelism.

I am not sure what you are talking about here. I do not believe for a second I can convince anyone to come to Christ. Not the point again.

It simply comes down to a matter of emphasis. I would argue once again that people who come to Christ under the influence of the type of Calvinism believed and taught by Piper do so IN SPITE OF the theology and not IN LIGHT OF the theology. I have heard Piper himself say that if there were such a thing as 7-point Calvinists, he would be one.

I do not believe to any extent that there is any thing I can do to merit salvation. Neither does RW or most of the other guys you would want to pigeonhole into your theological fantasy. The "my theology is more God-centered than yours therefore we see less people converted" approach will not fly.

Theology that does not translate to evangelism is simply head knowledge and not true discipleship. The level of knowledge among most Christians far exceeds their level of obedience, which is why Bethlehem will continue to attract dissatisfied Christians.

More power to you.

 

You guys must be a bunch of shallow pragmatists who are only concerned about numbers. You have to water down the gospel, preach a feel-good salvation, and believe that man is the center of the universe. Otherwise you would not be baptizing these converts who cannot possibly be legitimate.



Way to go

 

Theology that does not translate to evangelism is simply head knowledge and not true discipleship

This is pure ignorance. GOOD theology is the ONLY way that translates into GOOD evanelism.

What are you going to tell the people about? If you do not know the one you are talking about, you can not tell other ABOUT Him?

As far as PDC is concerned. You haven't done your homework.... Your not "ALL" the way there yet. The next "phase" is to STOP calling yourself a church and start calling it a "community"...

Proverbs 22:3 The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.

 

So, let's see what Jesus, The New Testament, and the rest of the Bible have to say about preaching and church growth.


Let me start by asking some quick questions: Do we have anything to with a person getting saved besides preaching the Gospel (Romans 10:14)? Does not the Holy Spirit convict the sinner (John 16:8)? Does not the Father give us to Jesus (John 17:11)? Does not God add to the church (Acts 2:47)? Didn't Jesus say that He would build His church (Matthew 16:18)?


These aforementioned and following scriptures make it abundantly clear that it is God that converts the sinner, not us or our methodology. We simply must proclaim the whole counsel of God and let Him give the increase as He pleases:


"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase," 1 Corinthians 3:5-7.


Let's look to Jesus for an example of what way we should preach to the "unchurched." In the Gospel of Luke there are multitudes of people following Him. What will Jesus say to them? How will Jesus attract these people? Will he preach to their felt needs? This is the crucial time to be sensitive and preach His best sermon so that He will not drive these seekers away:


"And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple," Luke 14:25-27.


What is Jesus doing? Doesn't Jesus know that we will not attract people with a message like that? Where are Robert Schuller, Bill Hybels, and Rick Warren, so that they can teach Jesus how to do things right? Could somebody please tell God that He has it all wrong. Is the preaching today by seeker sensitive pastors the opposite of the way that Jesus preached?


In Luke chapter 4 Jesus goes to his hometown synagogue in Nazareth to preach. What was the reaction to his message from the people that Jesus grew up with? Did Jesus give them a smooth message? See for yourself:


"But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong," Luke 4:25-29.


Is this the way that the seeker sensitive gurus teach us to reach unchurched Harry and Mary? I believe that Jesus would rebuke the seeker sensitive leaders the same way that he rebuked Peter for focusing on the interests of man rather than God:


"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men," Matthew 16:23.


In chapter eleven of the Gospel of Luke a seeker asks Jesus to come and have lunch with him. The custom of this seeker was to wash themselves before they ate a meal. Of course Jesus would not offend this seeker while in his own house by not washing Himself as well--would He? Rick Warren teaches that we must be sensitive to the "Hang-ups" of seekers. Let's see what Jesus did:


"And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?...But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you, Pharisees! For ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them," Luke 11:37-40; 42-44.



Jesus used some harsh language to describe these people. That's not very "Up-beat" or being sensitive to the Pharisee's customs. All Jesus had to do was wash His hands to avoid offending this man's "hang-up." In fact, a lawyer sitting among them asked Jesus if He was reproaching them as well. Jesus responded:


"Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe unto you! For ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres," Luke 11:45-48.


What was the greatest revival in recorded history? It was Jonah preaching to Nineveh. The whole city repented at his preaching--let's see what Jonah preached in order to get such a miraculous result. Did Jonah gather everybody and put together a play? Did Jonah see what music the Ninevites liked and incorporate that into his sermon? Did he speak to their felt needs? Was Jonah sensitive to the unchurched's hang-ups and not mention sin and destruction? Did Jonah gather together the experts from Nineveh and get their advice on how to better reach the young people?


A resounding no! Here is what Jonah preached, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them," (Jonah 3:4-5). Jonah did not even want them to repent, he wanted them destroyed because Nineveh was a wicked and cruel nation. That underscores my point further, if you preach the Word, God will honor it. It is not in man's wisdom, power, or might, (Zechariah 4:6). God adds to the church (Acts 2:47).


Another great revival can be found in the book of Nehemiah in chapters 8 and 9. What was done by the leaders that brought this great revival to fruition? Did they ask the unchurched for their opinion on how a church service should be? Did they take a poll of the unchurched and ask them why they were not attending worship services? Let's see what caused this tremendous revival:


"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshathac , and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto the LORD your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law," Nehemiah 8:8-9.


The leaders preached the word and it caused the people to weep! No entertainment, gimmicks, dramas, worldly music, etc. They simply taught God's Holy Word which has been found effectual in the eternal salvation of millions and millions of people. Charles Spurgeon had this to say about the teaching that attempts to please man instead of God. Sadly, this methodology is sweeping Evangelicalism today:


"The idea of a progressive gospel seems to have fascinated many. To us that notion is a sort of cross-breed between nonsense and blasphemy."


In the book of Jeremiah there is a moving quote about how the Nation of Israel exchanged the old paths of worshipping God for the new ways of worshipping idols:


"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein," Jeremiah 6:16.


Let's look at Jesus in the beginning of his ministry in John chapter 6. Jesus had a lot of people following Him. On the surface it appears that He was doing things right according to the seeker sensitive model. What kind of message did Jesus preach to this big group? Was it a felt needs sermon? Did he take a poll to determine what to preach? Did he keep it light? Did he water down the message so that he would not offend unchurched Harry and Marry? Here is what Jesus preached to this big group of people:


"Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it...When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?...From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" (John 6:60-61, 66-67).


Jesus spoke the unadulterated word of God and it offended people. Jesus placed some hard demands upon them and their beliefs. Are we somehow more sophisticated that Jesus? Will we instruct Jehovah? Are we now Gods counselor? Are we ashamed of the Gospel that is presented in the Bible?


In Mark chapter 10 we have the perfect example of how Jesus talked to an honest seeker. The rich young ruler asked Him, "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" Mark 10:17.


What was the reply of Jesus to this honest question? It does not even come close to what the seeker sensitive gurus teach:


"Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me," Mark 10:21.


Jesus told him some hard things and he also confronted his covetousness. He also told him that being one of his followers is not easy. He pointed out this man's sin and the reality of being a Christian. How else is a sinner going know that they need a savior unless you point this out to them with scripture? The rich young ruler left sad, and Jesus let him Go. I guess Jesus failed, right? Jesus didn't do church right. Will you follow man or God?


Does the message that Jesus taught sound like the one taught at seeker sensitive churches? When is the last time that you have heard them preach this:


"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:24-26


That message does not sell to well--does it? The experts would say that would be offensive to unchurched Harry and Marry so we must water that down to be sensitive to their hang-ups. We have got to play their music--or as Rick Warren says, "You must decide who you're trying to reach, identify their preferred style of music and then stick with it." For example the Modesto Bee reports: "Warren's emphasis on approachable Christianity is reflected at Saddleback, where worshippers can choose from nearly two dozen services that feature different styles of live music, from heavy metal to reggae to hula."


Listen to the words of Charles Spurgeon regarding this method of reaching unbelievers: "Dear friends, we know that souls are not won by music, if they were it would be time for preachers to give way to opera singers."


What is our mission? What is a pastors duty? Is it to play music that would interest the unchurched? Is it to cater to the felt needs and hang-ups of unbelievers at the expense of feeding the sheep? Let's see what the Bible says church is for:


"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers...Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved," Acts 2:42, 47.


Acts 2 tells us what the early church did when believers gathered together. Church is supposed to be a place for believers to have fellowship and be instructed in the Word so that when they depart they can be equipped to be salt and light and evangelize the world. It is not a place to cater to the felt needs unchurched. The sheep are to be fed, is that not one of the primary responsibilities of a shepherd? Isn't a shepherd supposed to feed the sheep?


Let me again quote from the article: The Gospel According to Hybels and Warren:


"The question, therefore, naturally arises— are the audience's felt needs a legitimate focus during evangelistic presentations? Should they be the authority in the church's evangelistic model? The evidence from God's Word clearly gives a negative answer to these questions. Obviously, the audience is taken into account (consider Paul on Mars Hill in Acts 17). Yet, the felt needs of the audience are never given first place. Rather, faithfulness to the message (and to the Giver of that message) is always what is most important. Thus, Paul tells Timothy that while people will one day exchange sound doctrine for entertainment, accumulating "for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires," Timothy is to preach the Word without compromise (2 Timothy 4:2-3). Likewise, Titus is to rebuke the lazy and gluttonous Cretans (who were clearly ruled by their felt needs), reproving them with right doctrine that they might be "sound in the faith" (Titus 1:13). More directly, Paul makes it clear that in his evangelistic endeavors, his goal was not to please men but rather to please God (Galatians 1:10). After all, he received his message and his commission from Christ Himself (Galatians 1:12; Titus 1:1). Paul's focus, therefore, was on serving his Lord and bringing Him glory— Christ was his highest priority. When it came to evangelism, Paul (and the other apostles— cf. Peter in Acts 2 and 4) concentrated on meeting the real needs of their audience (namely, the sinner's need for salvation), rather than focusing on their superficial felt needs."


When Jesus first sent out his disciples, what did they do? Did they gather the people to the local amphitheater and play the popular songs of the day? No, scripture says that, "And they went out, and preached that men should repent," Mark 6:12. Can you believe that? They actually told men that they needed to repent--how offensive can they be? That is no way to attract the unchurched, is it?


On the day of Pentecost there was a huge crowd of unbelievers amazed that the followers of Jesus were speaking to them in their own language, some even mocked them thinking that they were drunk. Peter rises up to speak to this vast crowd of unbelievers. What will Peter say to them?


"ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain...Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ," Acts 2:23, 36.


What was the reaction of this vast crowd to this preaching?


"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?...Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls," Acts 2:37, 41.


Three thousand of them repented and accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior. Peter preached the simple gospel, no gimmicks, showmanship, or man's wisdom. He simply was faithful to the Word and let God convict those that were chosen for salvation before the world began (Ephesians 1:4-5).


In Acts chapter three after Peter had healed a lame man at the temple gate called Beautiful a big crowd of people gathered around them at Solomon's Porch wondering what had happened. What will Peter say to them? Will he preach to their felt needs? Will he tell them that God wants to make them have a bigger business, hit more home runs, and have a better golf swing? See for yourself:


"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord...And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people," Acts 3:13-13, 19, 23.


Peter actually told them that they would be destroyed if they did not believe in Jesus. He told them that they delivered up Jesus to death. Has not every Christian and unchurched Harry and Mary done the same to Jesus? Was it not for all of our sins that Jesus died (1 Timothy 2:1-6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, 1 John 2:2)? Should we tell them no less that the great apostle Peter? What was the result of this brutish, unsophisticated, uneducated, and insensitive preaching? See how God blessed this foolish preaching of the cross:


"And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand," Acts 4:1-4.


Let's look at what happened to Peter and John in the book of Acts. We read that the non-believing Jewish leaders were greatly disturbed with such insensitive preaching:


"They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. They seized Peter and John, and because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day," Acts 4:2-3.


Peter and John were not trying to please the unbelieving Jewish leaders. They preached the very thing that offended them the most. When they were warned by the leaders to stop preaching such offensive things, Peter and John said:


"But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye," Acts 4:19.


After these threats and warnings from the leaders, what did Peter and John do? Did they tone down their message so that it would not be so offensive? Did they strive to be sensitive to the unbelieving leaders to the point of changing their message? Did they stop preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified? Did they stop preaching about the resurrection since this was the very thing that was so offensive to the unchurched? See for yourself:


"And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word...And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all," Acts 4:29, 33.


In Acts chapter 24, this is a time if any to preach a seeker sensitive sermon. Paul is a prisoner and he is speaking to Felix the Roman governor and his wife Drusilla the Jewess. How will Paul speak to the governor? Will he tone down the gospel out of respect for the governor's position and authority? Will Paul keep it light because he is a prisoner and they have the power to release him? Let's see what the apostle Paul preached to them:


"And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee," Acts 24:25


Paul said some hard things to Felix and his wife--in fact Felix was terrified and he sent Paul away. Scripture is replete with this type of preaching, yet today we are somehow more sophisticated that scripture. We are told that the Bible is antiquated and that we cannot reach people of the 21st century with its archaic message. Sadly, many churches have adopted this model-- replacing God's holy, unchanging, infallible, inerrant Word with man's wisdom and techniques.


We have gone over a few examples in the Bible of men of God witnessing to unbelievers. Now, I want you to compare what we just reviewed to the advice of Rick Warren to unbelievers in the March 2005 Ladies Home Journal article titled "Learn To Love Yourself"

"Learn To Love Yourself! Self-esteem still wobbly after all these years? These five simple truths will show you that you don't need to be perfect to be priceless....Accept yourself...God accepts us unconditionally (Remember he's talking to unbelievers)...Love yourself...Be true to yourself...Forgive yourself...Believe in yourself...You can believe what others say about you, or you can believe in yourself as does God, who says you are truly acceptable, lovable, valuable and capable," Ladies Home Journal March 2005, page 36.


Jeremiah was faithful to God throughout his ministry and life yet he did not have a single convert. Think about that for a minute my friend, his whole ministry did not produce one conversion. Was his ministry a failure? No, what matters is being faithful to God's Word--not the size of your ministry or the number of converts. Being faithful to God is rarely popular so why do so many shepherds seek to be accepted by unbelievers? See Jeremiah's moving lament over the hatred to him and God's message to a sinful and rebellious people:


"O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. For since I spake, I cried out, I cried violence and spoil; because the word of the LORD was made a reproach unto me, and a derision, daily. Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay. For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him," Jeremiah 20:7-10.


Martin Luther has this to say about a preacher seeking to be relevant and popular:


"Those who are in the teaching office should with the greatest faithfulness and expect no other remuneration than to be killed by the world, trampled under foot, and despised by their own...Teach purely and faithfully, and in all you do expect not glory but dishonor and contempt, not wealth but poverty, violence, prison, death, and every danger."


Let's look as well to the mighty prophet Ezekiel and the words that God gave him at his commission as a prophet. These words still apply to any man that would seek to serve God today. God warned him that to speak His words would not be very popular. Has anything changed today? Should we seek to be popular when God says that we will not be? See God's warning:


"And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day. For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD. And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee," Ezekiel 2:3-8.


Was John the Baptist seeker sensitive and concerned with the hang-ups with the unchurched? No, his head was chopped off for preaching the Word of God (Matthew 14:1-11). Was Stephen seeker sensitive and concerned with the hang-ups with the unchurched? No, they stoned him for preaching the Word of God (Acts 7:1-60). What is the history of the true prophets of God when speaking to the nation of Israel? Most of them were murdered, abused, and despised by the unchurched Israelites (Acts 7:52; Matthew 23:31; Jeremiah 2:30; 2 Chronicles 36:16; Hebrews 11:36-40; and Nehemiah 9:26).


I have posted a relevant qoute from Pastor Bob DeWaay's article "Church Health Award” From Rick Warren or Jesus Christ?":

"As we have seen, the two churches that were praised by the Lord and not rebuked were small churches. Clearly Jesus is not impressed with large numbers. More significantly, He never addresses church growth. How big these churches were compared to earlier times in their history was of no consequence to Jesus. Sometimes under severe persecution churches shrink because only those who are “overcomers” are willing to remain and pay the price. When Christianity is popular, churches grow for reasons other than true conversions. Therefore, what is essential is maintaining the true confession of the church regardless of whether it is being received or rejected. The only way to become an overcomer is through the blood of the Lamb. If the blood atonement is not proclaimed, the church cannot possibly overcome. Size or growth in numbers of people is not important. If the church is a confessing church, God will add to it those who are being saved. Noah was faithful to God and preached 100 years with no converts. Jonah was an unwilling preacher and God saved an entire city through his preaching. Noah is commended in the Bible and Jonah portrayed in a bad light. We need to rid ourselves of thinking about numbers."


Why is what the Bible teaches about the church and evangelism so different from the seeker sensitive movement? Are they seeking to please man rather than God? Are they trusting in man's wisdom? Are they ashamed of the gospel? How could a movement of God be inspired in part by Robert Schuller?


Some verses of scripture come to mind after thinking about these unbiblical teachings:


"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD," Jeremiah 17:5.


"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man," Psalm 118:8.


"Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!" Isaiah 31:1.


What did Jesus say about the way to heaven? Is it easy and clear for all to see? Or is it hard and narrow?


"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it," Matthew 7:13-14.


"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able," Luke 13:23-24.


I pray that people will get back to the true gospel and not be taken in by the latest fad. Jesus preached on hell more than He did on heaven. Yet today we are told to not mention hell--it might offend people. How twisted is that? How contrary to scripture is that? You be the judge.


We are to speak the truth in love and be gracious to unbelievers. The truth must be spoken nonetheless. We also must strive to be loving and kind when presenting the gospel. But, when we compromise the Word of God in order to not offend unbelievers, we have stopped preaching the gospel. We have become ashamed of the very thing that we profess to love. When we do this our hearts have departed from the LORD.


I long for the day when pastors will again preach Jesus instead of Rick Warren and preach from the Holy Bible instead of from The Purpose Driven Church and The Purpose Driven Life.


In the book of Revelation the church of Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) which was rich and wealthy and thought that it had need of nothing. Yet God had this to say about this "rich" church:


"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked," Revelation 3:16-17.


In the same book the church of Smyrna was described as poor, facing persecution, and in great tribulation. God had some very different words for this church:


"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life," Revelation 2:10.


Over 116 years ago Charles Haddon Spurgeon was preaching against the seeker sensitive movement of his day. We can learn from the insights of this hero of the faith. Just as the Bible says, "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun," Ecclesiasties 1:9.


"The fact is, that many would like to unite church and stage, cards and prayers, dancing, and sacraments. If we are powerless to stem this torment, we can at least warn men of the existence, and entreat them to keep out of it. When the old faith is gone, and enthusiasm for the gospel is extinct, it is no wonder that the people seek something else in the way of delight. Lacking bread, they feed on ashes; rejecting the way of the Lord, they run greedily in the path of folly."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Another Word Concerning the Down Grade, The Sword and the Trowel, 1887)


"Everywhere there is apathy. Nobody cares whether that which is preached is true or false. A sermon is a sermon whatever the subject; only, the shorter the better."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Preface, The Sword and the Trowel, 1888)


"The idea of a progressive gospel seems to have fascinated many. To us that notion is a sort of cross-breed between nonsense and blasphemy. After the gospel has been found effectual in the eternal salvation of untold multitudes, it seems rather late in the day to alter it; and, since it is the revelation of the all-wise and unchanging God, it appears somewhat audacious to attempt its improvement. When we call up before our mind's eye the gentlemen who have set themselves this presumptuous task, we feel half inclined to laugh; the case is so much like the proposal of moles to improve the light of the sun...Do men believe that there is a gospel for each century? Or a religion for each fifty years?"

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Progressive Theology, pg. 157-58, The Sword & Trowel, 1888)


"That very church which the world likes best is sure to be that which God abhors."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "How Saints May Help The Devil," July 24, 1859)


"Dear friends, we know that souls are not won by music, if they were it would be time for preachers to give way to opera singers."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit," Volume 18, page 239)


"The heaving of the masses under newly invented excitements we are too apt to identify with the power of God. This age of novelties would seem to have discovered spiritual power in brass bands and tambourines...The tendency of the time is towards bigness, parade, and show of power, as if these would surely accomplish what more regular agencies have failed to achieve."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit," Volume 28, page 377, 1882)


"Jesus said, 'Preach the gospel to every creature.' But men are getting tired of the divine plan; they are going to be saved by a priest, going to be saved by the music, going to be saved by theatricals, and nobody knows what! Well, they may try these things as long as ever they like; but nothing can ever come of the whole thing but utter disappointment and confusion, God dishonoured, the gospel travestied, hypocrites manufactured by the thousands, and the church dragged down to the level of the world."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit," Volume 40, page 199, 1888)


"From speaking out as the Puritans did, the church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses.

My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the church. If it is a Christian work, why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). That is clear enough. So it would have been if He had added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel." No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to him.

Then again, "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers .., for the work of the ministry" (Eph. 4:11-12). Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll.

Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all his apostles. What was the attitude of the church to the world? Ye are the salt" (Matt. 5:13), not the sugar candy---something the world will spit out not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead" (Matt. 8:22) He was in awful earnestness.

Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into his mission, he would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear him say, "Run after these people Peter and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick Peter, we must get the people somehow." Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them...

Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to effect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of the conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats")


"Another cause of mourning is when we see the holiness of the visible church declouded. I trust I am not given to finding fault where fault there is not. But I cannot open my eyes without seeing things done in our churches which 30 years ago were not so much as dreamed of! In the matter of amusement professors have gone far in the way of laxity. What is worse the churches have now conceived the idea that it's their duty to amuse the people. Dissenters who use to protest against going to the theatre now caused the theatre to come to them."

(Charles Spurgeon, "A Dirge for the Downgrade and A Song of Faith," Isaiah 66:10)


Hear these words of J. Gresham Machen:

"God grant that you may resist the Tempter’s voice; God save you from the sin of paring down the gospel to suit the pride of men; God grant that you may deliver your message straight and full and plain. Only so, whatever else you may sacrifice, will you have one thing — the favour of the Lord Jesus Christ. And only so will you be the instrument in saving souls. Do you think men’s souls are satisfied by the current preaching of the day, with its encouragement of human pride? It might seem so. The churches are crowded where Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah and his associates hold forth; one can sometimes in those churches scarcely obtain a seat; hundreds are turned away at the doors. But let us not be deceived by appearances. Among those crowds — contented though they may seem to a superficial observer to be — there are many hungry hearts. Despite all the apparent satisfaction of the world with this ‘other gospel’ of a non-doctrinal Christianity, this ‘other gospel’ that is dictated by human pride, there is deep down in the human heart a hunger for the Word of God. Despite all the efforts of modern prophets, all that Zedekiah and his far more than four hundred associates can do, despite the hubbub of modern optimism, you will find, here and there at least, in this modern world, listening to these modern preachers, those who say, after listening to it all: ‘Is there not here a prophet of the Lord besides that we might enquire of him?’"


A. W. Tozer wrote these words in 1955:

"For centuries the Church stood solidly against every form of worldly entertainment, recognizing it for what it was—a device for wasting time, a refuge from the disturbing voice of conscience, a scheme to divert attention from moral accountability. For this she got herself abused roundly by the sons of this world. But of late she has become tired of the abuse and has given over the struggle. She appears to have decided that if she cannot conquer the great god Entertainment she may as well join forces with him and make what use she can of his powers. So today we have the astonishing spectacle of millions of dollars being poured into the unholy job of providing earthly entertainment for the so-called sons of heaven. Religious entertainment is in many places rapidly crowding out the serious things of God. Many churches these days have become little more than poor theaters where fifth-rate "producers" peddle their shoddy wares with the full approval of evangelical leaders who can even quote a holy text in defense of their delinquency. And hardly a man dares raise his voice against it."


For a great series on this issue get, "Hard To Believe," or the books, "Hard To Believe," "Ashamed Of The Gospel," "Fools Gold," "This Little Church Went to Market ," and "Famine In The Land."


Other Articles:

Church Growth In The Bible

Charles Haddon Spurgeon on the Seeker Sensitive Model

John MacArthur on the Seeker Sensitive Movement

John MacArthur: What's Inside The Trojan Horse?

John MacArthur: A Clarion Call To The Modern Church

J. Gresham Machen On Being Faithful To God's Word


Quotes From Rick Warren


"Learn To Love Yourself! Self-esteem still wobbly after all these years? These five simple truths will show you that you don't need to be perfect to be priceless....Accept yourself...God accepts us unconditionally (Remember he's talking to unbelievers)...Love yourself...Be true to yourself...Forgive yourself...Believe in yourself...You can believe what others say about you, or you can believe in yourself as does God, who says you are truly acceptable, lovable, valuable and capable."

(Rick Warren, "Learn To Love Yourself," Ladies Home Journal March 2005, page 36)


"The first Reformation was about belief; this one’s going to be about behavior," said Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Southern California and author of the best-selling The Purpose-Driven Life. "The first one was about creeds; this one’s going to be about our deeds. The first one divided the church; this time it will unify the church."

(Rick Warren, "Global prayer rally focuses on world problems," Baptist Standard, By Ken Camp May 16, 2005.)


"Warren's emphasis on approachable Christianity is reflected at Saddleback, where worshippers can choose from nearly two dozen services that feature different styles of live music, from heavy metal to reggae to hula. Pastors preach in T-shirts and hand out fill-in-the-blank flashcards that dovetail with the day's sermon."

("Two Faces Of Faith, 'Purpose Driven' preaching for an MTV world," By GILLIAN FLACCUS,

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, Last Updated: April 9, 2005)


"When David said, 'The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want,' why did he say that? Well, because David was a shepherd," Warren says in an interview at Saddleback Church, a sprawling campus of manicured lawns, airy buildings and vast parking lots. "Today, I don't think it's any less appropriate for the businessman to say, 'The Lord is my CEO' or 'The Lord is my manager.' You can't just assume terminology today is understandable. I work very hard at being a translator."

(Rick Warren,"Two Faces Of Faith, 'Purpose Driven' preaching for an MTV world," By GILLIAN FLACCUS, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, Last Updated: April 9, 2005)


"The goal of 'The Purpose Driven Life' is to help people develop a heart for the world."

(Rick Warren, "The Purpose Driven Life helps readers determine the focus of their lives," pastors.com)


"Keep your pastoral prayers short in your seeker services...The unchurched can’t handle long prayers; their minds wander or they fall asleep."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Church, p. 256)


"The point Paul is making is that we must be willing to adjust our worship practices when unbelievers are present (1 Corinthians 14:23). God tells us to be sensitive to the hang-ups of unbelievers in our services. Although Paul never used the term 'Seeker Sensitive,' he definitely pioneered the idea."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Church, p. 243)


"During his last year in seminary, he and Kay drove west to visit Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth. "We had a very stony ride out to the conference," she says, because such nontraditional ministry scared her to death. Schuller, though, won them over. "He had a profound influence on Rick," Kay says. "We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back."

(A Regular Purpose-Driven Guy, Christianity Today, 11/08/2002)


"Imitating Schuller, Warren walked the (then unincorporated but fast-growing) town of Lake Forest, asking what kept people from going to church. He recruited a Bible study group that met at the Warrens' condominium; its members helped stamp and address letters to 15,000 households. "At last!" the letter began. "A new church for those who've given up on traditional church services!" More than 200 people showed up for an Easter service at Laguna Hills High School. Watching them stream in, Warren marveled, "This is really going to work!"

(A Regular Purpose-Driven Guy, Christianity Today, 11/08/2002)


"It's a myth that all you need is prayer and dedication to grow a healthy church. Some of the most dedicated prayer warriors I know are pastors of dying churches. It really bothers me that some pastor's conferences promote that myth -- leaving pastors feeling discouraged and guilty instead of encouraged.

We've all heard speakers claim, "If you'll just pray more, preach the word, and be dedicated, then your church will grow." Well, that's just not true. I can show you thousands of churches where pastors are doctrinally sound; they love the Lord; they're committed and spirit-filled and yet their churches are dying on the vine."

(Rick Warren Interview, Pastor's.com, August)


In an interview with Time Magazine March 29, 2004, Rick has this to say, "I'm translating the truth into 21st century language, and evidently a lot of people are listening." He's convinced that the nation is on the verge of a spiritual awakening, as people seek fulfillment they don't get in fast-track jobs and can't buy with gold cards. "The culture is asking, 'How do I fill this hole in my heart?'" he says. "I think religion has the answer."

(Rick Warren, Time Magazine, March 29, 2004)


Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women. "I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."

("This evangelist has a 'Purpose," by Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY, 7/21/2003)


"Everybody knows that Christmas is the idea that God sent Jesus Christ to earth. The big question is, 'So what?' Why did He come? And of course the Bible says, 'He came to, uh, give our past forgiven, a purpose for living and a home in heaven. And that's what this book (The Purpose Driven Life) is about."

(Rick Warren, "The Bill O'Reilly Show, The Factor," Friday, December 17, 2004)

Note: No mention of sin and the Gospel to the millions of veiwers of Bill O'Reilly on the Fox Network.


"There are always going to be situations that conspire to shrink your heart and shrivel your spirit...What will sustain you is your spirituality...Remember, there are no unspiritual abilities, just misused ones. I challenge you to start unsing yours for God's pleasure and enjoy the passion you'll find along the way!"

(Rick Warren, "Live A Passion-Driven Life," Ladies' Home Journal, April 2005, page 36)

Note: Remember this article is to unbelievers. Any unbeliever in the world could agree with Warren's statement: "What will sustain you is your spirituality." Rick's method of reaching unbelievers is foreign to what is taught in Scripture. Listening to Warren speak of "spirituallity" and "God" sounds like common New Age jargon--And I'm sure any New Ager would agree with Rick's article.


"We have used film clips, we have used some dramas, and we have used some object lessons. One of my favorite features is called "point and play," where we separate the points by music. We always do this at Easter and Christmas Eve. I learned this when I was a consultant on the DreamWorks movie, "The Prince of Egypt," to help keep it biblically correct. One day I was in the hall at DreamWorks, and I noticed something on the wall called an "Emotional Beat Chart." They actually monitor the emotional highs and lows of a movie."

(Rick Warren, "Purpose-Driven Preaching: an interview with Rick Warren," Pastors.com)


"Using sermon titles that appeal to felt needs isn’t being shallow; it’s being strategic."

(Rick Warren, "In Planning Appealing Sermon Titles, I Ask Myself Four Questions:")


"I'm never going to deny what I believe, but I've got to say it in a way that makes sense to the MTV generation in a postmodern world. Traditional churches think I'm changing the message, but all I'm doing is changing the method."

(Rick Warren, "A look at pastor and author Rev. Rick Warren," Dateline Alabama, March 25, 2005)


"If you look at most church advertising, it’s obvious that it was written from a believer’s viewpoint -- not from the mind-set of the unchurched. When you see a church ad that announces, “Preaching the inerrant Word of God!” who do you think that ad appeals to? Certainly not to unbelievers! Personally, I consider the inerrancy of Scripture as a non-negotiable belief but the unchurched don’t even understand the term. If you’re going to advertise your church you must learn to think and speak like unbelievers. The spiritual terminology that Christians are familiar with is just gibberish to the unchurched."

(Rick Warren, "We Must Learn To Think Like Unbelievers")


"Today “preaching to felt needs” is scorned and criticized in some circles as a cheapening of the gospel and a sell-out to consumerism. I want to state this in the clearest way possible: Beginning a message with people’s felt needs is not some modern approach invented by 20th century marketing! It’s the way Jesus always preached. It’s based on the theological fact that God chooses to reveal himself to man according to our needs! Both the Old and New Testaments are filled with many examples of this."

(Rick Warren, "Learning to Preach Like Jesus")


"Now I preach on repentance on every single Sunday without using the word because the word is misused today, it is misunderstood. So I talk about changing your mind and I talk about paradigm shift. But really, every message comes down to two words: will you? Will you change from this to this in the way that you are thinking?

Our culture is falling apart. If you are not preaching repentance in your message you’re not preaching. No matter what we cover it has got to come back to change your mind, because your mind controls your life."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"Now what I love to do is to teach theology to non-believers without ever telling them it is theology and without ever using theology terms. For instance, I once did an eight-week series on sanctification and never used the term. I did a four-week series on the incarnation and never used the term. I did a twelve-week series on the attributes of God — the omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence — and never used the terms. I just called it "Getting to Know God." I love to teach theology to non-believers without them knowing what it is; I find that a challenge. So it’s a good balance."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"Long before "The Purpose Driven Life" became a phenomenon, before it helped a hostage in Atlanta persuade her captor to turn himself in, Pastor Rick Warren applied his purposes to the rootless sprawl of south Orange County. "We have been trying to redefine the 'good life,' " Warren says. "People in Southern California, specifically Orange County, typically describe it as 'looking good, feeling good and having the goods.' But the truth is, the good life is all about 'doing good.'"

He proudly points out that the 20,000-plus-member Saddleback congregation raised $1.5 million for tsunami relief "over and above the church offering."

It's ironic, then, that the church born 25 years ago in Warren's living room is often likened to a spiritual shopping mall. On any Sunday, parishioners can get their Christian message in assorted live-music venues, including a tent-like structure for hard rock and another featuring gospel. There is also a center for children's services near the café.

Fields' shtick-cum-sermon ushered in a three-weekend series titled "Simplify Your Life." First, to warm up the crowd, giant screens aired a mock exposé called "Garage Raiders," with a flamboyant reporter ambushing Saddleback clergy. Why was Pastor Glen polishing a red Ferrari? Next up was a live skit in which two men spoke covetously of their neighbors' Mercedes-Benzes, Harleys and Sea-Doos. Fields then touched on how people rationalize their choices, like the friend who bought a Hummer because "it's really a safe car."

(Scott Duke Harris, "Livin' Extra-Large," L.A. Times April 24, 2005)


"It is my deep conviction that anybody anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the felt needs to his or her heart. That key to each person's heart is unique so it is sometimes difficult to discover. It may take some time to identify it. But the most likely place to start is with the person's felt needs. As I pointed out earlier, this was the approach Jesus used."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, pg. 219)


"We must be willing to adjust our worship practices when unbelievers are present. God tells us to be sensitive to the hang ups of unbelievers in our services."

(Rick Warren, quoted in "Church Growth Gone Mad," By Clay Miller, Associate Pastor, Outreach Ministries, Grace Community Church)


"...And of course, that purpose now becomes greater -- and in fact, I think that's really what the message this week of Easter is, is that God can bring good out of bad. That he turns crucifixions into resurrections. That he takes the mess of our life, and when we give him all the pieces, he can -- God can put it together in a new way."

(Rick Warren, "Larry King Live," CNN, March 22, 2005)

Note: Is that the message of Easter? Or is it that Christ, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures," 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.


"Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, everybody's heard the word "repent" and they don't really understand what the word means. For a lot of people, when they think of the word repentance, they think of a guy with a sandwich sign that says, "turn or burn," or, "you're going to die and fry."

But actually, repent is the Greek word, metanoia (ph), which means literally "to change your mind." And it means that when I repent, I change my mind. First, I change my mind about God, I change my mind about myself, I change my mind about others, I change my mind about life. And a lot of people look at repentance as a negative thing, like I'm going to have to give up this, this, and this, and this, and like it's something terrible. You know, when I repented, Larry, years ago, I basically turned from hopelessness to hope, from darkness to light, from guilt to forgiveness, from loneliness to a family of God, from purposelessness to purpose, from having no meaning in my life to having meaning. It was the most positive change in my life. "

(Rick Warren, "Larry King Live," CNN, March 22, 2005)

Note: Wow! When you repent you will have give up alot of things that you formerly enjoyed but now you realize that they are sinful!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it," Luke 9:23-24.


"You know, the three biggest surprises of 2004 were first, as you mentioned, 'The Passion of the Christ,' which was roundly panned by every media, and yet went on to become the third best grossing movie in history. That was the first bit surprise. The second was my book, where for the second year in row, 2003 and 2004, it was the best selling book in the world. And what in the world is a book by a pastor doing at the top of the best-seller's list for two years."

(Rick Warren, "Larry King Live," CNN, March 22, 2005)

Note: Good question, "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets," Luke 6:26.


"Experts haven't agreed on one definition. Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in California -- and arguably the nation's most influential evangelical pastor -- says evangelicals are united by three characteristics: "They believe that the Bible is literally God's Word, [they believe] that Jesus Christ is God...and [they believe] that we have a responsibility to pass this good news on to other people." But other experts impose stricter tests, while still others use the term more loosely to apply to anyone who claims to be a "born-again Christian."

("Getting Your Religious Terms Right," May 23, 2005. BusinessWeek Online)

Note: What about the Trinity, Virgin Birth, or the Bodily Ressuirection of Jesus? Any liberal or Oneness Pentcostal could agree with Rick Warren's definition of an "Evangelical."


"We want to loosen up the tense muscles of uptight visitors. When your body is relaxed your attitude is less offensive."

(Rick Warren, quoted in "Church Growth Gone Mad," By Clay Miller, Associate Pastor, Outreach Ministries, Grace Community Church)


"Worship is a powerful witness to unbelievers – if God's presence is felt, and if the message is understandable. God's presence must be sensed in the service. More people are won to Christ by feeling God's presence than by all our apologetic arguments combined. Few people, if any, are converted to Christ on purely intellectual grounds. It is the sense of God's presence that melts the heart and explodes mental barriers."

(Rick Warren, quoted in "Church Growth Gone Mad," By Clay Miller, Associate Pastor, Outreach Ministries, Grace Community Church)


"I want to state this in the clearest way possible: Beginning a message with people's felt needs is more than a marketing tool! It is based on the theological fact that God chooses to reveal Himself to man according to our needs. Both the Old and New Testaments are filled with examples of this."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, pg. 295)


"We have used film clips, we have used some dramas, we have used some object lessons. One of my favorite is called "point and play," which is separate the points by music. We always at Easter and Christmas Eve do a "point and play" message. For example, with my Easter sermon, I took every point and we divided it up into five sections, and we had a song that went with each point. So there is an emotional punch as well as an intellectual punch at the same time. We layer it: tension/release, tension/release.

I learned this when I was a consultant on the DreamWorks movie, "The Prince of Egypt," to help keep it biblically correct. One day I was in the hall at DreamWorks, and I noticed something on the wall called an "Emotional Beat Chart." They actually monitor the emotional highs and lows of a movie. I counted up and there were nine peaks and nine valleys in this 90-minute movie — about every ten minutes there’s tension/release, tension/release. Well, you can do that in a message: you can do it with humor, you can do it with an illustration, or you can do it with a feature, but it allows us to keep people’s attention longer in order to give them more material."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"I believe that one of the major church issues [of the future] will be how we’re going to reach the next generation with our music."

(Rick Warren, SuperConference 2003, at Liberty University)


"Having a separate service for believers and non-believers is a good idea."

(Rick Warren, SuperConference 2003, at Liberty University)


“Edit archaic terms from your songs, use the choir in a contemporary way,” Warren urged. “Encourage members to re-arrange and rewrite. New songs say God is doing something awesome. For 2,000 years, the Holy Spirit has used all kinds of music.”

(Rick Warren, SuperConference 2003, at Liberty University)


“There’s no such thing as Christian music. There are just Christian lyrics. To insist that all good music came from Europe 200 years ago; there’s a name for that - racism.”

(Rick Warren, SuperConference 2003, at Liberty University)


"Saddleback is unapologetically a contemporary music church. We’ve often been referred to in the press as “The flock that likes to rock.” We use the style of music the majority of people in our church listen to on the radio. Years ago, after being frustrated trying to please everyone I decided to survey our church. I passed out 3 x 5 cards to everyone in the Crowd service and asked them to write down the Call Letters of the radio station they listened to...What we discovered was that 96% of our people said they listened to middle-of-the-road adult contemporary music."

(Rick Warren, Selecting Worship Music, July 29, 2002)


"I will admit that we have lost hundreds of potential members because of the style of music Saddleback uses. On the other hand, we have attracted thousands more because of our music."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Church, p. 285)


"The ground we have in common with unbelievers is not the Bible, but our common needs, hurts, and interests as human beings. You cannot start with a text expecting the unchurched to be fascinated by it. You must first capture their attention, and then move them to the truth of God's Word. By starting with a topic that interests the unchurched and then showing what the Bible says about it, you can grab their attention, disarm prejudices, and create an interest in the Bible that wasn't there before."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Church, p. 295)


Warren cited a study conducted by Columbia University that found, “After 50 times of hearing a song, the human mind quits thinking about the words.” Warren said that the only way to remedy this disconnect of repetition is to revamp the music.

(Rick Warren, SuperConference 2003, at Liberty University)


"Although music is usually the most controversial element of a seeker service it is a critical element that cannot be ignored. We need to understand the incredible power of music, and harness that power by being willing to set aside our own personal preferences and use the music that will best reach the unchurched for Christ."

(Rick Warren, Selecting Worship Music, July 29, 2002)


"You must match your music to the kind of people God wants your church to reach.... The music you use 'positions' your church in your community. It defines who you are.... It will determine the kind of people you attract, the kind of people you keep, and the kind of people you lose."

(Rick Warren, Selecting Worship Music, July 29, 2002)


"If you were to tell me the kind of music you are currently using in your services I could easily describe the kind of people you are reaching, without even visiting your church. I could also tell you the kind of people your church will never be able to reach."

(Rick Warren, Selecting Worship Music, July 29, 2002)


"If they try to change the existing service too much they'll lose some people who are already there. You don't necessarily have to stop what you're already doing. It's like when you're fishing. Instead of just using one line, throw another hook into the water. You might have four or five different worship styles, if that's what's needed to reach different generations that live in your community. I'm not against any traditional method that is still reaching people for Christ - I'm just a proponent of adding new ways and services to reach those who will never be reached by the way we've traditionally done it."

(Rick Warren Interview, Pastor's.com, August)


"The church that claims to reach everyone is only fooling themselves. No style of church can possibly reach everyone. Take a close look and you'll find that every church has a "culture." This culture is determined by the predominant kind of people who make up the congregation. Whoever your church has right now is who you're likely to attract more of - whether you like that fact or not.

What is the likelihood of a church full of retirees reaching teenagers? What is the likelihood of a church full of urban professionals reaching farmers? What is the likelihood of a church full of military personnel reaching peace activists? Highly unlikely. That's why we must start all kinds of services and churches."

(Rick Warren Interview, Pastor's.com, August)


"Seeker sensitive" doesn't mean you compromise the message. It means you take into consideration people's culture in order to communicate that message. Making a service "comfortable" for the unchurched doesn't mean changing your theology; it means changing the environment of the service - such as changing the way you greet visitors, the style of music that you use, the translation you preach from, and the kind of announcements you make in the service. The message is not always comfortable. In fact, sometimes God's truth is very uncomfortable. Still we must teach, "the whole council of God." Being seeker sensitive does not limit what you say but it will affect how you say it."

(Rick Warren Interview, Pastor's.com, August)


Rick Warren speaking to false teacher David Yonggi Cho: "I've read your books on Vision and Dreams - speak to pastors about how you hear the voice of the Holy Spirit?...What advice would you give to a brand new minister?...Do you think American churches should be more open to the prayer for miracles?"

(Rick Warren,"Breakfast With David Yonggi Cho And Rick Warren," Pastors.com)


"What you should do is change the easiest thing first and the things that make the greatest difference. Don't worry initially about the issues that cause the greatest disagreement. The easiest thing to change is the preaching. Any pastor in any church could update his preaching style for the 1990s and see a dramatic improvement. In many churches, we're still using an oratory style what was pre-television."

(Rick Warren Interview, Pastor's.com, August)


"The greatest challenge churches will face over the next five years is developing and adapting our ministry methods to the massive needs of the 21st century. We can't just keep on "doing it the way we've always done it."

The world has changed - permanently - and we are never going back to the 1950s. We must start thousands of new churches and services. It will take new churches to reach a new generation."

(Rick Warren Interview, Pastor's.com, August)


"We don't have to make the bible relevant — it is — but we have to show its relevance. What is irrelevant, in my opinion, is our style of communicating it. We are tending to still use the style from 50 years back that doesn't match who we are trying to reach today."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"So my cry is: pastors just do more of it. You already know that you have got to apply in people's lives; you have just got to do more of it. If that means cutting back . . . I think sometimes in our preaching we are far more interested in a lot of the details and backgrounds than people are. A guy who spends three weeks on one verse is missing the point of the verse...God didn't mean for it to be read that way. He is missing the point of it."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"People don't remember much. If you are motivated you remember about seven bits of information; if you’re not motivated you remember about two. So if they are only going to remember something what do I want them to remember? Well, I want them to remember the application, the lessons. Not a cute outline of text. The alliterated outline is not going to change their lives. So I say make your applications your points because the points are all that they are going to remember."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"Rather than threaten sinners with fire and brimstone, Warren says, "We believe in attraction evangelism. We believe in loving people into the Kingdom."

("This evangelist has a 'Purpose," by Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY, 7/21/2003)


"As I go through these things, first I sit down and I start praying. I say, "Who is going to be there?" I start to think of one person...People that I have invited, like my back doctor who was an atheist Jew who came for Easter. I start thinking: "Now what is going to help this guy know about Christ?" (preaching the gospel) and I will go through that little formula and think about the points, which were actually quite simple."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"But more than that I believe you need to hear God's word from more than just one personality. I think that is healthy. I think a lot of people, you hear a guy for about six or seven years and he has shot his wad. You’ve heard what he has got to say and you either have to start hearing the same stuff over again or move to a different church. Well, I want people to stay at Saddleback for thirty or forty years, so I’ve built a team of different preachers with different personalities — I do believe preaching is truth through personality, like Brooks said."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"I happen to believe that the audience determines God's will for what you are supposed to preach on...So I start saying, "God, who is coming?" If I’m dealing with teenagers that is one kind of message. If I’m dealing with seekers, then that is another kind of message. If I am dealing with mature believers, that is another kind of message. If I am dealing with people who need to be mobilized for ministry . . . We look at that and we pray and then we will do a tentative outline of the series for the year."

(Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Preaching: An Interview with Rick Warren. Sept-Oct 2001)


"The reason most people are floundering- I've probably bought in my lifetime maybe 60 or more books that have Purpose in the title just to see what they're like and almost all of them would be classified as what I call self-help books. They all basically say the same thing, look at your dreams, clarify some values, set some goals, figure out what you're good at, aim high, go for it, be disciplined, believe you can achieve your goals and never give up. All those are good things and they'll help you become a success, but you can be a success in life and still never, ever know God's purpose for your life."

(Rick Warren Interview, Fall 2002)


"I knew that by simplifying doctrine in a devotional format for the average person, I ran the risk of either understating or overstating some truths. I'm sure I have done that. I also knew that I'd be criticized for what I left out of the book and for using fifteen different translations and paraphrases to get the message across. But I decided when I planted Saddleback in 1980 that I'd rather reach large numbers of people for Christ than seek the approval of religious traditionalists. In the past eight years, we've baptized over 11,000 new adult believers at our church. I am addicted to changed lives."

(Rick Warren Interview, Christianity.com)


"There are some types of people that your church will never reach because they require a completely different style of ministry than you can provide."

(Rick Warren, quoted in "Church Growth Gone Mad," By Clay Miller, Associate Pastor, Outreach Ministries, Grace Community Church)


"Explosive growth only occurs when the type of people in the community match the type of people that are already in the church and they both match the type of person the pastor is..."

(Rick Warren, quoted in "Church Growth Gone Mad," By Clay Miller, Associate Pastor, Outreach Ministries, Grace Community Church)


"The problem is the longer you are a believer the less you think like an unbeliever. Your interests and values change. Because I've been a Christian for most of my life I think like a Christian. I don't normally think like an unbeliever, and worse than that I tend to think like a pastor and that is even further removed from an unbeliever's mindset."

(Rick Warren, quoted in "Church Growth Gone Mad," By Clay Miller, Associate Pastor, Outreach Ministries, Grace Community Church)


"Music is an integral part of our lives. We eat with it, drive with it, shop with it, relax with it, and some non-Baptists even dance to it! The great American pastime is not baseball - it is music and sharing our opinions about it!...When I read about biblical worship in the Psalms, I see that they used drums, clashing cymbals, loud trumpets, tambourines and stringed instruments. That sounds a lot like contemporary music to me!...Saddleback is unapologetically a contemporary music church. We’ve often been referred to in the press as 'The flock that likes to rock.' We use the style of music the majority of people in our church listen to on the radio."

(Selecting Worship Music by Rick Warren)


"Worship has nothing to do with the style or volume or speed of a song. God loves all kinds of music because he invented it all -- fast and slow, loud and soft, old and new. You probably don't like it all, but God does!"

(Rick Warren, "The Purpose Driven Life," pg. 65)


"Meditation is often misunderstood as some difficult, mysterious ritual practiced by isolated monks and mystics. But meditation is simply focused thinking – a skill anyone can learn and use anywhere."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life, p. 90.)

Note: Anyone? If anyone can do it it must not be meditating on Gods word.


"Read Scripture from a newer translation. With all the wonderful translations and paraphrases available today, there is no legitimate reason for complicating the Good News with four hundred-year-old English. Using the King James Version creates an unnecessary cultural barrier. Remember, when King James authorized the new translation it was because he wanted a contemporary version. I once saw an advertisement that claimed if King James were alive today, he’d be reading the New International Version! That’s probably true. Clarity is more important than poetry."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 297)


"Also, since the verse divisions and number were not included in the Bible until 1560 A.D., I haven't always quoted the entire verse, but rather focused on the phrase that was appropriate. My model for this is Jesus and how he and the apostles quoted the Old Testament. They often just quoted a phrase to make a point."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life page 325)


"Jesus drew large crowds yet he never comprimised the truth. No one accused him of watering down the message except the jealous chief priests, who criticized him out of envy (Mark 15:12). Frankly, I suspect that same ministerial jealousy motivates some today who criticize churches that attract large crowds."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 53)


"Third, never criticize what God is blessing, even though it may be a style of ministry that makes you feel uncomfortable."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 62)


"How do you define faithfulness? Are you being faithful to God's Word if you insist on communicating it in an outdated style?"

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 65)


"We discovered four common complaints about churches from our survey in the Saddleback Valley. Church is boring, especially the sermons. The messages don’t relate to my life. This is the complaint I heard the most. It's amazing how churches are able to take the most exciting book in the world and bore people to tears with it! Miraculously, they’re able to turn bread into stones! The problem with boring preachers is that it causes people to think God is boring! From this complaint, I determined to learn how to communicate God’s Word in a practical, interesting way. A sermon does not have to be boring to be biblical, and it doesn’t have to be dry to be doctrinal. The unchurched aren’t asking for watered-down messages -- just practical ones! They want to hear something on Sunday that they can apply on Monday."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 191)


"Using information we gathered through the survey, we mailed an open letter to the community addressing the major concerns of the unchurched and announcing a church service designed to counteract the most common excuses they gave."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 193)


"Some pastors today criticize "life-application" preaching as shallow, simplistic, and inferior. To them the only real preaching is didactic, doctrinal preaching. Their attitude implies that Paul was more profound than Jesus; that Romans is "deeper" than the Sermon on the Mount or the Parables. I call that heresy!"

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 229)


"Sadly, isolationists have been extremely judgmental of seeker sensitive churches in books and articles. Most of these criticisms are unfair characterizations made out of ignorance (very judgmental) and do not represent what actually happens in seeker sensitive churches. Trailblazers always get arrows shot at them. Translating the truth into contemporary terms is a dangerous business. Remember, they burned Wycliffe at the stake for doing it."

(Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church, page 238)

Note: Comparing himself to Wycliffe?


"Most pastors do not understand the power of preaching. But even more important than that is they don't understand the purpose of preaching. I probably have the largest library of books on preaching in America. I've read over 500 books on preaching. Maybe some seminary might come close to that, but I am sure that no pastor comes close to 500 books on preaching. And as I've read them, the vast majority do not really understand that preaching is about transformation, not information."

(Rick Warren, "Purpose-Driven Preaching: an interview with Rick Warren," Pastors.com)


"I hear people talk about life application preaching as if it were a genre or type of preaching. But I think if you don’t offer life application in your sermon, then you’re not preaching. It may be a lecture, it may be a study, it may be a commentary but it is not preaching...So, my goal is not to inform, but to transform. Unless you understand that, your messages tend to be based on the traditional style of teaching."

(Rick Warren, "Purpose-Driven Preaching: an interview with Rick Warren," Pastors.com)


"What is irrelevant, in my opinion, is our style of communicating it. We tend to still use the style from 50 years back that doesn't match who we are trying to reach today."

(Rick Warren, "Purpose-Driven Preaching: an interview with Rick Warren," Pastors.com)


"A lot of guys need to start where they end their sermon. They will do about 80 to 90 percent explanation and interpretation in background study, and then at the end there is a little 10-minute application. Now, that is OK if you have a highly motivated group of people who just love Bible knowledge. But the Bible says there are a couple of problems with Bible knowledge. In the first place, it says that knowledge puffs up but love builds up, and the Bible says that increased knowledge without application leads to pride. Some of the most cantankerous Christians that I know are veritable storehouses of Bible knowledge, but they have not applied it. They can give you facts and quotes, and they can argue doctrine. But they’re angry; they’re very ugly people."

(Rick Warren, "Purpose-Driven Preaching: an interview with Rick Warren," Pastors.com)

Note: These are some pretty serious personal attacks "But they’re angry; they’re very ugly people."


"Now understand that I am pastoring a church in California, a church where maybe 77 percent of the people were saved and baptized at Saddleback. Without question, Saddleback is the most evangelistic church in America. We baptize more than 1,000 people every year."

(Rick Warren, "Purpose-Driven Preaching: an interview with Rick Warren," Pastors.com)


"Every small group has at least one 'difficult' person in it. If you don't immediately recognize who that person is -- it's probably you!"

(Rick Warren "Saddleback Sayings," Pastors.com)


"I think we should let culture determine the worship style (and you know I'm not talking about compromising the truth here). Paul said, "I become all things to all men that I may, in some way, save some." So, if you're in California, you should have a California culture church. If you're in Ohio, you have an Ohio culture church. If you're in Mississippi, you should have a Mississippi culture church."

(Rick Warren, "Why Do You Gear Your Weekend Services Toward Seekers?")


Earthly Empires


"Osteen's flourishing Lakewood enterprise brought in $55 million in contributions last year, four times the 1999 amount, church officials say. Flush with success, Osteen is laying out $90 million to transform the massive Compaq Center in downtown Houston -- former home of the NBA's Houston Rockets -- into a church that will seat 16,000, complete with a high-tech stage for his TV shows and Sunday School for 5,000 children. After it opens in July, he predicts weekend attendance will rocket to 100,000. Says Osteen: "Other churches have not kept up, and they lose people by not changing with the times."

Pastor Joel is one of a new generation of evangelical entrepreneurs transforming their branch of Protestantism into one of the fastest-growing and most influential religious groups in America. Their runaway success is modeled unabashedly on business. They borrow tools ranging from niche marketing to MBA hiring to lift their share of U.S. churchgoers. Like Osteen, many evangelical pastors focus intently on a huge potential market -- the millions of Americans who have drifted away from mainline Protestant denominations or simply never joined a church in the first place.

To reach these untapped masses, savvy leaders are creating Sunday Schools that look like Disney World (DIS ) and church cafés with the appeal of Starbucks (SBUX ). Although most hold strict religious views, they scrap staid hymns in favor of multimedia worship and tailor a panoply of services to meet all kinds of consumer needs, from divorce counseling to help for parents of autistic kids. Like Osteen, many offer an upbeat message intertwined with a religious one. To make newcomers feel at home, some do away with standard religious symbolism -- even basics like crosses and pews -- and design churches to look more like modern entertainment halls than traditional places of worship.

Branding Whiz: So successful are some evangelicals that they're opening up branches like so many new Home Depots (HD ) or Subways. This year, the 16.4 million-member Southern Baptist Convention plans to "plant" 1,800 new churches using by-the-book niche-marketing tactics. "We have cowboy churches for people working on ranches, country music churches, even several motorcycle churches aimed at bikers," says Martin King, a spokesman for the Southern Baptists' North American Mission Board.

Branding whizzes that they are, the new church leaders are spreading their ideas through every available outlet. A line of "Biblezines" packages the New Testament in glossy magazines aimed at different market segments -- there's a hip-hop version and one aimed at teen girls. Christian music appeals to millions of youths, some of whom otherwise might never give church a second thought, serving up everything from alternative rock to punk and even "screamo" (they scream religious lyrics)...Evangelicals' eager embrace of corporate-style growth strategies is giving them a tremendous advantage in the battle for religious market share, says Roger Finke, a Pennsylvania State University sociology professor and co-author of a new book, The Churching of America, 1776-2005: Winners and Losers in Our Religious Economy...In contrast, evangelicalism's theological flexibility gives it the freedom to adapt to contemporary culture. With no overarching authority like the Vatican, leaders don't need to wrestle with a bureaucratic hierarchy that dictates acceptable behavior. "If you have a vision for ministry, you just do it, which makes it far easier to respond to market demand," says University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill sociology professor Christian Smith.

With such low barriers to entry, the number of evangelical megachurches -- defined as those that attract at least 2,000 weekly worshippers -- has shot up to 880 from 50 in 1980, figures John N. Vaughan, founder of research outfit Church Growth Today in Bolivar, Mo. He calculates that a new megachurch emerges in the U.S. an average of every two days." Earthly Empires: How evangelical churches are borrowing from the business playbook: By William C. Symonds, with Brian Grow in Atlanta and John Cady in New York. May 23, 2005 BusinessWeek Online.


"Once established, some ambitious churches are making a big business out of spreading their expertise. Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., formed a consulting arm called Willow Creek Assn. It earned $17 million last year, partly by selling marketing and management advice to 10,500 member churches from 90 denominations. Jim Mellado, the hard-charging Harvard MBA who runs it, last year brought an astonishing 110,000 church and lay leaders to conferences on topics such as effective leadership. "Our entrepreneurial impulse comes from the Biblical mandate to get the message out," says Willow Creek founder Bill Hybels, who hired Stanford MBA Greg Hawkins, a former McKinsey & Co. consultant, to handle the church's day-to-day management. Willow Creek's methods have even been lauded in a Harvard Business School case study.

Hybel's consumer-driven approach is evident at Willow Creek, where he shunned stained glass, Bibles, or even a cross for the 7,200-seat, $72 million sanctuary he recently built. The reason? Market research suggested that such traditional symbols would scare away non-churchgoers. He also gives practical advice. On a recent Wednesday evening, one of his four "teaching" pastors gave a service that started with 20 minutes of music, followed by a lengthy sermon about the Christian approach to personal finances. He told the 5,000 listeners about resisting advertising aimed at getting people to buy things they don't need and suggested they follow up at home by e-mailing questions. Like Osteen, Hybel packages self-help programs with a positive message intended to make people feel good about themselves. "When I walk out of a service, I feel completely relieved of any stress I walked in with," says Phil Earnest, 38, a sales manager who in 2003 switched to Willow Creek from the Methodist Church he found too stodgy," Earthly Empires: How evangelical churches are borrowing from the business playbook: By William C. Symonds, with Brian Grow in Atlanta and John Cady in New York. May 23, 2005 BusinessWeek Online.

 

Is that the longest post in the history of the BB?

 

You actually expect someone to read that?

 

You guys must be a bunch of shallow pragmatists who are only concerned about numbers. You have to water down the gospel, preach a feel-good salvation, and believe that man is the center of the universe. Otherwise you would not be baptizing these converts who cannot possibly be legitimate.



Way to go </font>[/QUOTE]Who mentioned anything about "only being concerned with numbers"? Funny, in your profile you fail to mention which church you are the "lead pastor" in. Why?

Never once heard our pastor preach on man being the center of the universe. Why would you say that?

If you mean "watered down" as in not only using the KJV, or if you are questioning the content of the service, I'm not sure how you could without ever being there. Pretty judgemental and un-evangelical, aren't you?