PDL/PDC and Calvinism

John 6 -- hyper safe haven

Let's not forget John 6 begins with felt needs ministry -- hungry people needing bread. Jesus met the need.

The people revealed their faulty motives for seeking a Messiah which led to the context where hypers love to camp.

Just a couple of observations:

The theology of John 6 has nothing to do with seeker-sensitivity and felt needs preaching. The theology of John 6 captures the mystery element of how humans are free at some level (he who comes ... he who believes) and yet must be drawn by the Father (no one comes unless drawn ...). What we are left with in John 6 is the reality of the tension, a tension that cannot be explained by a human system such as Calvinism or Arminianism or hybrids in between.

This passage provides no prescriptive model for doing modern day ministry or preaching style. It is simply an instance in Jesus' ministry where he met needs and then exposed impure motives, false belief, and religious hypocrisy. John 6 is not a prescription on how to do contemporary ministry (unless you are going to start multiplying bread and walking on water). It is a description of what happened in that instance.

I could take you to numerous passages where Jesus met people right where they were (lepers, prostitutes, woman at the well, Nicodemus, sick, etc.). He met their needs and then spoke to them about eternal life. You have to admit that there is no constant pattern to how Jesus dealt with people. If anything, more often than not Jesus was meeting felt needs in both his actions and teachings.

You like to point out the passages where Jesus seemed "insensitive" to unbelievers. What do you do with the numerous texts where Jesus went out of his way to meet needs and offer hope to unbelievers?

What we have here is the difference between trying to meet every felt need and accomodate people in their sin and unbelief (which Jesus did not do) and addressing people's felt needs in a way that points them out of their sin and to Christ (which is what Jesus did and is the model RW and others follow).

Here are 2 questions I often have a hard time getting answered in this discussion: should a church be insensitive to unbelievers? & should a pastor be insensitive or unconcerned with felt needs?

Here's a follow-up question: Did John Piper preach a message the Sunday following 9/11 that dealt with what happened on 9/11? Just curious.

 

Before it gets overlooked, here is the other question I have been waiting to get answered:

Is growing a church on dissatisfied Christians seeking "deeper" teaching NT evangelism?

 

Before it gets overlooked again, what is the standard for evangelism? And you ASSUME much again. You want 'Proof' for my claims and are appauled when I make them, yet it is o.k. for you to make claims.

Jesus did meet needs, real heart felt needs but what was the PURPOSE for that? It WAS NOT because it was a good BUSINESS philosophy to get people in the DOOR. It was to validate who He was in prophecy. What was Jesus' reply to those who where "following" Him. It was a proof that meeting peoples needs only feeds THE FLESHLY desires of people, they where not BELIEVING who He was. EVERY ministry is the GOSPEL. Repent and believe! The duty of the Church is to love and take care of the poor. NOT as a "Philosophy" to get people in the door but out of sincerity of the heart to obey God's command.

Appealing to the "flesh" only results in fleshly minded people to come to get filled and not hear something that would "lower" their self esteem by being told they are in sin and need to change their ways and repent and pick up their cross and follow Christ. Why? Because the natural man thinks that the cross is foolishness and is at enmity with God. Don't want to "chase" those "unbelievers" out of Church though do you?

 

It could be part of "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you". Besides, I am not sure that Bethlehem is looking to grow their church on dissatisfied Christians. It may be happening against their wishes. Do you have a reason for thinking that it is intentional on their part? That is not the impression that I get from them but I really do not know.

 

If I am making assumptions, it is merely because I cannot get you to address my point. Let's back up and try one more time. Bethlehem is a church of several thousand people, yet you baptize less than 40 people a year. So here is the million dollar question -- where do these people come from? Are they believers who come to Bethlehem from other churches? If so, is simply attracting dissatisfied Christians (dissatisfied or they would not be leaving other churches) true NT evangelism (which is turning unbelievers into disciples)?

Wow it is hard to get a simple question answered on this board sometimes!!!

Ah here is a good question that we can address. The purpose was for the same purpose a church should be seeker-sensitive today. The reason Jesus came was to "seek and save the lost."

And this is the same reason why we address needs today. It has nothing to do with fulfilling a business philosophy or to fill the seats. The reason we address real needs is b/c Jesus Christ is the only true answer to those needs and we want to help get as many people to Christ as possible.

You are exactly right -- it is not about philosophy. It is about obeying the command -- go and make disciples. The Great Commission stands at the heart of what we do.

It has nothing to do with "appealling to the flesh" but everything thing to do with relating Christ to everyday life. Your pastor does it every time he stands in the pulpit. He attempts to relate Christ to the hearer.

I noticed that you too failed to answer the two important questions: should a church be insensitive to unbelievers? and should a pastor be unconcerned or unaware of people's real life needs? And follow-up: did John Piper preach a message directly related to 9/11 on the Sunday following that national tragedy?

These are not difficult questions to answer.

Should I take this sarcastic note as your answer to question 1:

And actually I don't want unbelievers to be "chased away". Do you?

 

I am not saying it is something they intentionally set out to do. I am simply seeking to understand how a missions-minded, Great Commission church that has thousands of people attending it each week baptizes fewer than 40 people a year.

Does anyone else see the irony in this or perhaps we have simply reached a place where growing through transfers is accepted over growing through people coming to Jesus Christ.

 

growing through people coming to Jesus Christ.
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Again, your standard to location is not a standard for the church. Bethlehem's vision is not ONLY for Mpls (all the staff has to live within a 10 block radius of the church, to specifically evangelize the city) but it is to the NATIONS.

AGG, and you can't say... well that's fine BUT I'm talking about the actual church... Bethlehem doesn't have to live up to your standards AGG. I could turn it around and say how many NATIONS have you evangelized? How many of your congregation even gone out? Hundreds upon HUNDREDS of Bethlehem have not only given there lives to evangelize but also to teach others to evangelize AND to TEACH. I've got a missionary calender that every person in the directory gets from the church, that you pray for. There are TWO families a WEEK for every WEEK of the YEAR ! By averages, that might even be as big as your whole church! So the great commission is being done very well. As I say when we go knocking on the crack heads in the cities doors. Wide is the gate and many enter into it and narrow is the road and FEW enter into it. If it is God's will that only forty NEW BELIEVERS come every year, Who are you oh man?

By the way there is a great video series put out by Word Pictures. It is called "Does The Truth Matter Anymore" by John MacArthur... anybody wanting to know how pragmatism is destroying the church or who don't even know what pragmatism is, should watch this eye opening video series.

 

I applaud your missions efforts. Not the point.

Simple questions that still received no answer:

Bethlehem is a church of several thousand people, yet you baptize less than 40 people a year. So here is the million dollar question -- where do these people come from? Are they believers who come to Bethlehem from other churches? If so, is simply attracting dissatisfied Christians (dissatisfied or they would not be leaving other churches) true NT evangelism (which is turning unbelievers into disciples)?


And the other unanswered questions:

should a church be insensitive to unbelievers? and should a pastor be unconcerned or unaware of people's real life needs? And follow-up: did John Piper preach a message directly related to 9/11 on the Sunday following that national tragedy?

Been there, done that. Own the video.
MacArthur is great at burning down straw men -- another common tactic in this discussion.

I have 50+ of MacArthur's books. I am very familiar with his views. Most of his books on this topic are not dealing with reality but with an extreme fringe.

 

Again, I have to ask - why do you think that they think it is acceptable? I doubt they do, and from what I read and hear they are doing all they can to change it. But ultimately it is the Spirit who give life, and if He chooses to use a particular church in this way versus that way then who are we to look down on them?

 

I would simply contend that it is a reflection of their theology.

Obviously it is the Spirit that gives life. No one is arguing that point. It is simply a matter of emphasis and who you target. Those churches that focus on reaching unbelievers tend to reach more unbelievers. Those churches that focus on teaching tend to reach fewer unbelievers and draw more dissatisfied Christians.

I am not saying either is right or wrong. I am simply stating reality.

 

Hi ya. I want to share my thoughts on this tread...as posted a month or more ago.
This post below was dealing with music...but the idea is the same.

***************************** part 1
This new found Church growth movement is not new at all. The “Lets be a little like the world and we can bring in the lost”….is not a new thought. It didn’t work in the past….and it will not work this time. Oh it will work for a few years and then the Church will be closed, or so far left of center they should close.
Every time the Church takes it’s eyes off God and places its eyes on this world that is when the Church falls. The story of Peter walking on the water is in the Bible for this very reason. When Peter looked away from Christ he fell. Paul had many messages in living in the world…but being a light in the world. A light shines and stands out.
When you have time read what many Baptist wrote about what caused the “down slide” of the Puritans. In short, it was when they started looking at man, and not God. The YMCA was changed to pull in the unsaved. The plan was after they got the unsaved in the building, they would preach to them. Did it work? For a few years it worked and then there were more from the world at the Y then believers. The same will happen to the Church in this age. When is the last time you went to a Bible study at the Y? Worship is about GOD!! We should try to please GOD in worship not try to please the world to bring them in. It’s ALL about God.
It’s now to the point you don’t need your Bible in some churches, nor your songbook. Everything is on the big screen making it nice and easy for us. As said before, some do not play live music, but listen to recordings. This makes things easy for the Music man of the Church. If you have a golf game to play on Sunday…hey..Go for it. You can always download the message from the internet and listen to it later. Forget taping the super Bowl to see it after church, tape the pastor and watch the super bowl.
All of this easy worship is for us not God. But is it really worship if all we think about is how to make it easy for us or others? We should not be thinking of how to make it easy on us or more like the world, but rather how can I do this the best for my God and how can I do it more Godly. Can we not give Him our ALL? Can we not take sometime and go to Church? Can we not carry our Bibles? Can we not take the time and play live music to our GOD? Is He not worth it? Can we not keep the worlds sound in music out of Church?
Worship is ALL about God…get over yourself and worship Him.
In Christ….James
**************************** part 2
follow-up


I said...{{The same will happen to the Church in this age.}}

I was not very clear. Maybe it would be better said….
Any church that looks at the world and changes to be as the world will become just like the world. In this will be the down-slide.
This would include Baptist.
The simple deed of placing a good label on a Church building does not make that church a good Church. What is more important then a Church body calling itself Baptist is that each believer of that church holds to Baptist doctrine. This sounds silly to say, but many churches that have the name Baptist no longer hold to this doctrine but as Lot did in the OT, looking at the world and he wanted to be close to the world. So what did Lot do? He moved a little closer.
I feel I must address the subject of this forum “musical instruments in the church”, to keep with the rules of the forum of staying on the subject.
I agree with Pastor Larry when he stated…
“It has to do with the way they are played, not with the drums themselves. And that is the issue with all musical instruments.”
A drum is nothing until the drummer plays it. For the most part, what comes from the drum comes from the heart of the drummer.
I am an artist. I have been for 35+ years. I can see a person’s heart or what is on his mind by the art he or she draws. Listen, I did not say I could tell if he is saved. God only knows that. But I can tell where his mind is when the art was being formed. I have to hire artist from time to time I can’t always tell with just seeing one work. But if I see all or most of his work you will see moods and over all, his heart.
If he is mad as he draws it will show in his drawing. One “mad looking” drawing is not bad. We all have anger to deal with. But if all I see is he being mad in his work, there is bad bitterness in his life that he needs to deal with.
If he views life as unfair, you will see that in his drawing. If he lives in the world of rock music, it sticks out, it’s very easy to see. I see this rock art more and more today. If his heart is on things of this world it shows. If he likes fast cars, you will see fast cars in some of his work.
You do not have to be an artist to see this. Go to some ones house and look what hangs on the wall. If they like horse racing you’ll see horse racing. If it’s football that gets them going, you’ll see football in the house.
Art is an expression of your heart. Music is like that also. I have seen people sing in Church that was not singing to God, but rather singing as they heard the song sang by some pop star. What did I get from the song? The message to me was that they loved that pop star. Did they also love God? I have no idea. But it did not come across as if they did. Or at least the pop star was placed above God. So what does this have to do with drums in church? Let me ask you…why have drums?
Are drums-sets of the devil? Is an electric guitar just sin in waiting? NO!! Are they worldly as someone asked? Well…they could be…but not in and of themselves.
What the user does with these musical instruments is the issue. If you are just following the world it will show in your songs and music. If you just want the worlds beat, the world may like it, but does God? The big screen I wrote about, it’s not bad in and of itself. But if it leads to dead believers going to a hip church, that will not even open the Word Of God, what is this telling God about our love for Him?
There may be a place for drums in your church, but do not place them there for the wrong reasons. And whatever you do, make sure your goal is not to be like the world, but rather more like Christ.

In Christ…James

 

Making worship "easy" is not the issue. The issue is bringing in unbelievers who may not own a Bible, or are intimidated by "church", or came from a "religious" legalistic background. Hence the need for scripture on the "big screen", the "come dressed as you are" dress code and the CCM which is uplifting and worshipful, and music someone from a "religious" church never heard before. Being culturally relevant is not the same as being "worldly". How many people would go to a church where everyone dressed like the 1930's with suits and brimmed hats? It' all a matter of perspective and trying to reach the lost.

 

Webdog,

I am not telling you what is to be in your church and what is not. I trust you have a good church. Many say this all about taste. The line you used above i hear a lot.
"How many people would go to a church where everyone dressed like the 1930's with suits and brimmed hats?"

Things do change. I drive a car..never have had a horse. We need to update all the time. What i have seen in some of this update is the wrong heart. Now I trust your heart is right..and your church. But let me share my world.

For over 2 years i kept getting emails from people blasting all of this "church growth" ...dress down stuff. I thought..these people are crazy. Can not we worship anyway we want? who are we to tell them how to worship? I mean i would write 2 LONG emails a day standing up for those that wanted to take on this movement. In the end....the Word is getting out...that is what matters. I may not like that. I thought it was over taste.

then........

it...........

came.............

to my church

that is when i saw what happens. now do not get me wrong. I'm not claiming all churchs that go this way...end up the same as mine. But i'll share what mine did. and i have seen it in every one that went this way.

The church I went to for 25 years was a great Bible preaching church for 50 years, but changed to a “Christ Centered Worship Center” 3 years ago. I hang in there as long as I could but had to leave this year. We held hands and sang more songs but had less preaching. We changed the music to sound more like the world. In order to bring the lost in...we need to make them want to come. the lost?...they didn't come. Those that dropped out of church...well..some of them came back. They came "because it was now fun". The singing was really bad. I’m not talking taste here. The new songs were very weak in truth and in music quality. The choir that was hands down the best in the state now had songbooks with no parts. The books were called “easy song pieces for Church choir” or something like that. I had 3 girls in the choir for years. They said the leaders wanted to change so as not to sound so “churchy”

We heard a lot about Gods love preached.
God loves you.
Lets sing “I love you Lord” . We sang this 2 times a month or more. I love the song...but i felt i was chanting or something we sang it so much.

We started to hold hands while we pray.

Where as this is true about God loving us, there is more to God than this.

The preacher would not use the word sin. He would always change it to..Mistake….or he blow it. Is not sin in the Bible?

This is not only in my old church but every church I have seen that went this way. Weak preaching and fuzzy feelings…with downgrading the music. The phrase Christ Centered Worship sounds good, but does not really do this very thing.

this downgrading is across everything in the church. dummy down is not what made my old church great. preaching Gods Word made my church great.

again...its not the taste....its the reason for change.

now...that is how i have seen it. maybe you have been blessed not to see it that way.

well...i'll drop it now. this is something that each must deal with on their own. I just trust it is done for the right reasons. if so...great..go for it. if not..we are only following self.


In Christ...James

 

James, I'm sorry about the experience you had and especially that you had to leave your church family of 25 years. That has got to be rough. It sounds like they took things too far in trying to promote "fun" and entertainment instead of God's Word. Worship always should take precedence. If I had a choice in going to the church you mentioned and one where everyone dressed in '30's garb, I'd be on the phone with my grandfather in a hurry trying to find a hat!

 

When has the gospel been unrelevant?

How do you understand the word worldly?

I have a book i would like for you to read webdog.
"Prophetic Untimeliness "

here is a line from this book.

"By our uncritical pursuit of relevance we have actually courted irrelevance; by our breathless chase after relevance without a matching committment to faithfulness, we have become not only unfaithful, but irrelevant; by our determined efforts to redefine outselves in ways that are more compelling to the modern world than are faithful to Christ, we have lost not only our identity but our authority and our relevance. Our crying need is to be faithful as well as relevant"
*************************
here is a quote i thought was funny..not from the book

Quote:

When Spurgeon was preaching, Barnum and Bailey offered him a fat price to come over here and preach.
Mr. Spurgeon answered with Acts 13:10, "0 full of all subtly and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" We plunge frantically in all directions trying to popularize the gospel.
The Ichabod Memorial Church decides to pack them in with folk music And then they say over at Ephesus, "Well, we'll try a TV personality." Then Pergamos says, "Well, we're gonna have a fella who can play a fiddle and beat tap drums and blow a harmonica all at the same time." Then over at Sardis they say, "We're gonna put on Aunt Dinah's quilting party. Come dressed like they were a hundred years ago, and we'll all see Nellie home." Then over at Laodicea they have a talking horse.
****************************


Jesus said, "The world will hate you (because they view you as irrelevant) but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

We want the world to love the church.

The gospel is relevant to the world as is.


In Christ...James

 

I never claimed the gospel to be "unrelevant", nor insinuated such. Culturally relevant in the style of service offered.

Worldly means just that...being part of world.

 

To me...worldly acts of sin.

To me...worldly means WANTING.
and or...worldly is being as close to the world....without sinning

worldly is NOT drinking beer.
worldly would be wanting to be just like the world..without drink the beer.
and...
Its also a focus on the world....

wanting to have more things...of the world
wanting to have the same.....things as the world
wanting to be .......just like the world
wanting to copy ......the world
wanting to bring the world with us...any where we go.

this comes from...LOOKING at the world.
the more we look...the more we want.

the more we look at the world...the less we look at God.

in the book i talked about before...i loved how the writer told about progress. at one time, progress was seen as a place in growth in a person. Now it is viewed as having the latest things...or doing it the newest way.

Hey...i'm a high tech nut. I love computers. I have the 1st mac sold...the 1st power mac....the 1st imac..the 1st ibook..the 1st ipod. I love it.

THINGS If they help...and things can help..then we should use them. But these things do not bring progress. progress is growing in God...not growing in numbers. Change should be more in our hearts...not about new tools.


I see our (the church) place in the world as...
in the world...for we must be in it to be alive...but NOT as if we come from the world.
as a city...on a hill.....where we can be seen
as a light ...in the darkness
as a place to retreat from the world...

This little light of mine...i'm going to let it shine. The shine is for we stick out in the world.

The NY times loves the church growth moment. Why?
well..i have no idea. But if the world likes it...i wonder.

The Bible says we will be hated by the world. If we move toward the world in hopes of gaining their love...that does not sound right to me.

Worldy is not always sin in one event. Worldly is a mind set of blinding in to the world..so as to be like them.
Worldy is....eyes on the world things...not on progress in our walk with God.

oh well....that is my thoughts.


In Christ.....James

 

To me...worldly is everything against Jesus Christ and living a godless lifestyle. Some of the things you listed are not necessarily worldly, but your perception of what is...beer for instance. That is for a different thread on a different forum.

 

yes i know this about beer. just trying to express this....

****going as far as you can...without sinning. ****

stepping OVER that line moves the worldlyness in the highest level...SIN

no matter your thoughts on beer..at some point you have a line you draw. Worldly is taking your will to the line..and not crossing.

still..it's your will..you have that right....you are free to do this. The NT is not under the LAW....we are under grace to choose....so that EVERYTHING is lawful. I agree 100%.

Standards are set for many reasons. liberties are as personal as salvation itself. I can not save you. You have a personal relationship with God. liberties are to be this way too...personal relationship with God.

I can not set your standards for you, and you can not set them for me. But we should have standards in our life.

There are a view ways to set standards. One is to look at sins which we would never do and set them this way. This way we use our freedom from the law to go to the full length of liberty and stop before crossing into sin. All area between doing NOTHING... to the point of sin is fair ground. I’ll call this SIN LOCATION STANDARDS

Another way to look at setting standards is is giving up freedoms. In this case we start in the same way as the SIN LOCATION STANDARDS for we really do have full liberty in Christ.

We then ask things like this. I belong to Christ so what will i give up to serve Him? On this question we can give-up things that are bad for our witness.

Can i have a beer?...yes I have freedom to do so.
but i will not ...for i give it up beer for others look at this in a bad light ...and I do not want to bring bad light to Him.

I stick with the no drinking of any beer as the point. But..whereever you place this wall is up to you and God. You may place it at...”as long as i do not get drunk”..point. Again..that is up to you and your Lord. But the point is..the focus is not GETTING ALL YOUR FREEDOMS....but giving up your freedoms for Him.

Taking this to the church...if in order for me to belong to a local church, i need to GIVE-UP...my freedoms then i will. All organizations have rules. This is in no way the same as being a better Christian.

In other word...if i go to a school and they say...
"You must put a rock on your head anytime you walk to the cafe”...then in order for you to go to school there you must go by the rules. If this is a Christian school..they too have rules. if they have the same rule we must follow it too. We give-up our freedoms to go to school there. Now...if this Christian school says this...

You must put a rock on your head anytime you walk to the cafe in order for you to be a better Christian” that is wrong.


rules have nothing to do with your personal relationship with God. We live in grace. following rules does have a lot to do with our relationship with God.. If i decide that this school is still worth going to...even though they go to far in the rules...i still must go by their rules and not cry for my freedoms. Its about what freedoms i will give-up.


In the SIN LOCATION STANDARDS...you care for your freedoms..and so look for self. In the WHAT CAN I GIVE-UP STANDARDS...you look at God and your witness.

life always comes back to this very thing. only 2 choices on the self....chose you God..or chose you self?

so...back to the Church....many follow the world...looking..wanting...for SELF.

Worship should be about...GOD


In Christ...James

 

Again I GAVE YOU AN ANSWER. Here it is again.
The vision of the church is to Teach God's word. Do it EVERYWHERE. (Evangelism) Bethlehems vision statement is this, "Spreading a passion for the supremacy of God in all things, for the joy of all peoples through Jesus Christ". If people are leaving other church's to come to Bethlehem, it is not a "goal" of the church to do so. If they come we will not push them away, would you? If 40 people is what God ordains to be saved that year from the preaching and evangelizing the locals than praise God! Again YOU haven't answered MY question on this, is that BAD? We have to live up to your standards? Please call 40 low...please. We are not concerned about numbers, we are concerned about teaching God's Word for HIS glory. The Puritans had "revival" meetings... you know that? How did they consider it a "success"? .. IF the Word was taught clearly and correctly. THATS IT.

What was Jesus' answer to "worldly needs"
Matthew 6:31-33 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Again preaching was the answer. No hand outs.

Yes he did, .... do you know Jesus did also? They both said the same thing.

Luke 13:4-5 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."


What are the NEEDS of the unbelievers? CHRIST. And God inspired teachers to preach God's Word with authority, and not being ashamed of the Gospel, REPENT AND BELIEVE. Love it or leave it.