PDL/PDC and Calvinism

[All about Grace]

rc,

You win simply due to volume.
I can't respond to all of this info.

If you want to ask some more basic questions about methodology, etc., I will be happy to respond.

I am still interested in hearing the reasoning behind what appears to be a lack of consistent evangelism at Bethlehem.

 

[All about Grace]

Who mentioned anything about "only being concerned with numbers"? Funny, in your profile you fail to mention which church you are the "lead pastor" in. Why?

Never once heard our pastor preach on man being the center of the universe. Why would you say that?

If you mean "watered down" as in not only using the KJV, or if you are questioning the content of the service, I'm not sure how you could without ever being there. Pretty judgemental and un-evangelical, aren't you?

I guess you missed the total SARCASM of my post. I was being totally sarcastic in light of my discussions with rc. I thought the "way to go" at the end would have given it away.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Who mentioned anything about "only being concerned with numbers"? Funny, in your profile you fail to mention which church you are the "lead pastor" in. Why?

Never once heard our pastor preach on man being the center of the universe. Why would you say that?

If you mean "watered down" as in not only using the KJV, or if you are questioning the content of the service, I'm not sure how you could without ever being there. Pretty judgemental and un-evangelical, aren't you?

I guess you missed the total SARCASM of my post. I was being totally sarcastic in light of my discussions with rc. I thought the "way to go" at the end would have given it away. </font>[/QUOTE]I guess I did...had the gloves up and everything!

 

[StefanM]

Confusion is why I like to use the [sarcasm] fake code[/sarcasm] like this.

 

[rc]

Oh yeah, the lack of discipline to read and to critically think. This is a huge problem also.

"That very church which the world likes best is sure to be that which God abhors." Spurgeon.

If you think there is an evangelism problem with the number 1 evangelistic church in the midwest, you've got problems. Bethlehem has started hundreds of SEMINARIES across the world that put out over hundreds of indigenous missionaries every year. And it has been sending out missionary's for over 125 years! Go ahead and plan your "vision" for the next year for your CEO. I'll evangelize for Christ.

 

[All about Grace]

Oh yeah, the lack of discipline to read and to critically think. This is a huge problem also.

I'll allow my 2 Masters and Phd to speak for themselves

It has nothing to do with reading and thinking and everything to do with mass. Select some pertinent topics and I will be happy to address them.

If you think there is an evangelism problem with the number 1 evangelistic church in the midwest, you've got problems.

I am still wondering about the less than 40 a year.

 

[rc]

Hey AAG,
If you are that prominent in education, (And you assume you have more education than me), Why don't you write John Piper yourself He will respond to you. Again my "long" reply answered your "40 a year" problem.

 

[All about Grace]

Originally posted by rc:
Hey AAG,
If you are that prominent in education, (And you assume you have more education than me), Why don't you write John Piper yourself He will respond to you. Again my "long" reply answered your "40 a year" problem.

Actually I have talked with Piper. However it was back when I was more narrow in my practices and would not have even noticed the less than 40 a year issue. I have no qualms with John Piper as a person. Again I respect his work and he has made a multitude of young people think. I think he has taken some positive steps in recent years by linking himself with the Passion movement. I was a bit surprised, but thrilled, when he did. John Piper does not need to provide me an answer to the less than 40 a year issue. I am simply responding to your posts and wonder how your theology and praxis balance out.

Where in the post do you address this? I will try and surf it out.

 

[rc]

Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all his apostles. What was the attitude of the church to the world? Ye are the salt" (Matt. 5:13), not the sugar candy---something the world will spit out not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead" (Matt. 8:22) He was in awful earnestness.

Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into his mission, he would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear him say, "Run after these people Peter and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick Peter, we must get the people somehow." Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them...

Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to effect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of the conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire."

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats")


Since you are so concerned with numbers AGG, how much is good enough for you? If not 40 is 60? Or 200? And the location of the Baptism? It has to be at the church downtown? So the ones in Africa, China, Middle East, India don't count? I know you are going by RULES, since you are judging by some standard, what is the standard number that a good Church should judge by? Are they in the Rick Warren Bible? If 40 a year in Pipers 20 years of preaching is a given that's 120 for Three years isn't it. Let's see, how many years was Jesus' ministry. Oh yeah 3. hmmm ... he had THOUSANDS of follows also didn't he? How many "converts" did He have? (Actually CHOSEN).... Oh yeah 12! Maybe Jesus should of used Rick Warrens book huh?

 

[webdog]

Maybe Jesus should of used Rick Warrens book huh?

...or maybe Jesus IS THE REASON for Rick Warren's book!

 

[rc]

Yeah,

That's why He is Including JW's and Mormons into His "Community"... You guys need to do your homework.

The Bank is the Reason for Warren's book.

 

[webdog]

Yeah,

Because Jesus didn't eat with the sinners (they must have been all future "elect"), and He didn't die for JW's and Mormons, according to your screwed up theology...maybe you should do your homework and base it on the Bible.

You are basically calling RW a false prophet by claiming his book is only about money and not Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us to test the spirits...I will be doing this with your future posts on here.

 

[rc]

You should be doing that with everybody anyways.
You should start doing it with Rick Warren also.

Unfortunately you don't understand WHY he is inviting them. That's the problem. And you haven't done your homework on the issue. He is not addressing their beliefs AT ALL but embracing unity AT THE SAKE of doctrine. That is one of the reasons he is changing the name CHURCH for COMMUNITY. Do your homework.

 

[All about Grace]

(Charles Haddon Spurgeon, "Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats")

Let's move into this century and discuss real life issues in our existing culture. This is not London of Spurgeon's day.

It is amazing to me how many guys want to use Spurgeon when it is convenient for them. If Spurgeon were alive today, he would be ripped to shread for his lifestyle practices and tendency to preach in a way that was far from expository.

If you want to ask a specific question instead of quoting Spurgeon, I will address it. By the way, Spurgeon was considered too far "out there" by many of his contemporaries for methodological choices he made.

Since you are so concerned with numbers AGG, how much is good enough for you?

I am not suggesting there is a set standard. I just find it ironic that a church of thousands has so few new converts. What does that tell us? Who are you attracting? It has to be mainly believers from other churches. My question then becomes: is this true Great Commission evangelism which is obviously unbelievers becoming believers. I am not talking about what Bethlehem is doing around the world. I am talking about the thousands that come to your church every weekend. Let's just stay with them. Is growing a church on dissatisfied Christians seeking "deeper" teaching NT evangelism? That's the only point I am trying to make and you continue to skirt around.

 

[All about Grace]

Oh yeah 3. hmmm ... he had THOUSANDS of follows also didn't he? How many "converts" did He have? (Actually CHOSEN).... Oh yeah 12! Maybe Jesus should of used Rick Warrens book huh?

Another common misdirection tactic. In actuality, Jesus attracted scores of unbelievers. And evidently thousands of people believed in him. Are you suggesting there were only 12 genuine believers in Jesus Christ? Let's not blur the lines between the 12 apostles Jesus specifically chose for a greater task and the multitudes that flocked to hear him speak (b/c he was meeting needs) and believed.

Here is a follow-up question for this last point: Did Jesus meet people at their point of need? Why did the multitudes flock to hear him?

 

[All about Grace]

Originally posted by rc:
Yeah,

That's why He is Including JW's and Mormons into His "Community"... You guys need to do your homework.

The Bank is the Reason for Warren's book.

I am not sure we are the ones who need to do our homework if you believe for one second that RW believes JWs and LDS are a part of the circle of genuine believers. Again these type of claims are outlandish and need factual support. If I claimed John Piper believed JWs were a part of the community of faith, you would demand evidence. RW deserves the same respect.

And to suggest RW wrote PDL for financial prosperity is absurd. RW has testified on multiple national platforms that he has been shocked by the popularity of PDL and PDC. What gives you the right to judge another's motives like this?

 

[rc]

Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women. "I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials . I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."

("This evangelist has a 'Purpose," by Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY, 7/21/2003)

Being Mormon is a non-essential? And Yes the JW's also are included. What is he training here? How to promote Christ? He's helping Mormons "get more converts?" I've been debating Mormons for 15 years, and he's helping them evangelize.... oh goody. Sounds like he's throwing away the PURPOSE and is SELLING the "technique" at the cost of people going to Mormonism to me, but I guess that's a non essential.

You fail to understand the ROOTS of his philosophy. It is steeped in Schuller and Peale. They are horrible. And a bad tree doesn't bear good fruit. Schuller protege is on his way to make everybody eventually believe the same garbage Schullers been spouting... "Jesus died for His SELF ESTEEM" .... Great gospel brother. No thanks.
Robert Schuller on Reformation:

“Classical theology has erred in its insistence that theology be 'God-centered,' not 'man-centered'” "The most serious sin is one that causes me to say, 'I am unworthy. I may have no claim to divine sonship if you examine me at my worst.' For once a person believes he is an 'unworthy sinner,' it is doubtful if he can really honestly accept the saving grace God offers in Jesus Christ."

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

"I contend that his unfulfilled need for self-esteem underlies every act ...over and over again that the core of man's sin is not his depravity but a "lack of self-dignity", Self-esteem is ... the single greatest need facing the human race today." "If the gospel of Jesus Christ can be proclaimed as a theology of self-esteem, imagine the health this could generate in society!" What is Sin? “ Sin is any act or thought that robs myself or another human being of his or her self-esteem " - Robert Schuller (Self-Esteem, the new Reformation).

Great teacher... "Coming soon to a theater.. ah um.. I mean church near you!"

Why is he teaching Mormons to "evangelize" better? Was this a FREE seminar? ... Doubt it.

[ July 20, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: rc ]

 

[rc]

By the way AAG. You havn't answered me on you "standards" for official Church growth numbers/percentages.

 

[All about Grace]

The quote from USA Today does not suggest RW believes Mormons & JWs are a part of the Christian faith. That is a huge leap to go from what is said to what you imply.

RW has addressed the "influence" of Schuller & Peale. As you suggest, do your homework. RW has stated very recently that neither Schuller nor Peale "mentored" him. His only reference to Schuller was that when he visited the Crystal Cathedral as a young man, he learned about seeker-sensitivity (which by the way is very different for Schuller and Warren). This is a common accusation that has been refuted by RW himself.

By the way AAG. You havn't answered me on you "standards" for official Church growth numbers/percentages.

Actually I have:

"I am not suggesting there is a set standard. I just find it ironic that a church of thousands has so few new converts. What does that tell us? Who are you attracting? It has to be mainly believers from other churches. My question then becomes: is this true Great Commission evangelism which is obviously unbelievers becoming believers. I am not talking about what Bethlehem is doing around the world. I am talking about the thousands that come to your church every weekend. Let's just stay with them. Is growing a church on dissatisfied Christians seeking "deeper" teaching NT evangelism? That's the only point I am trying to make and you continue to skirt around."


I would also like to hear your response to my previous point about Jesus' preaching and following.

 

[rc]

Here is a follow-up question for this last point: Did Jesus meet people at their point of need? Why did the multitudes flock to hear him?

Didn't read my LONG post did you?

I'll give you another example:

John 6:2 2 And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick.

John 6:26 26 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves .

Mark 8:12 12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, "Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly, I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."
Jesus was showing them their depravity. Only wanting what was fleshly. Really apealing to the "self esteem" huh. Showing them Purpose huh?

But lets go on...

John 6:36-39 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Didn't say "I love you, you are worth soooo much to me" These are indicatives aren't they.

Jesus has a lot more to teach about their self esteem...

John 6:44 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Again, GOD CENTERED... no "Love yourself" garbage.

John 6:63 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail.

Man can't avail... poor man, no purpose. God has one though...

John 6:65 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

GRANTED. Again, the whole focus is what God is going to do TO you. Not what are you going to do with God.

Here's my favorite part..

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

I'm sure they went somewhere where they could hear how precious they are and pump up their fleshly tickling ears.

John 12:37-40 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 Therefore they could not believe . For again Isaiah said, 40 " He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart , lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

What about all those FOLLOWERS of Jesus? Yeah, they where with Him till the end huh?

Luke 23:23 23 But they were urgent, demanding with loud cries that he should be crucified. And their voices prevailed.

WIDE is the gate and MANY shall enter it, brother that leads to descruction.

Matthew 7:14 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are FEW (Maybe around 40 a year per chruch?) Don't know...